HoseHeads.com | HoseHeads Classifieds | Racer's Auction
Home | Register | Contact | Verify Email | FAQ |
Blogs | Photo Gallery | Press Release | Results | HoseheadsClassifieds.com


Welcome Guest. Already registered? Please Login

 

Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead


Records per page
 
Topic: If a fan rewrote the 410 sprint car specs Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 2 of 3   of  52 replies
SAF92
May 09, 2018 at 03:02:09 PM
Joined: 01/24/2018
Posts: 386
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on May 09 2018 at 02:54:45 PM

    Thanks for the reply. You seem like a passionate sprint car fan. At the rate things are going, where do you see this in 10 years? When I look back on it 40 years, 30,20 or 10 years, the sport is shrinking.

To your thoughts-

1)The WoO etc. depend on local cars to fill their fields. They don't carry enough cars on their own to be like NASCAR. My feeling is that if nothing is done to keep the sport from shrinking, it will look like Formula One racing.

2) I do like it. I want it to continue. Heck- I want it to grow.

3) Can't disagree there.

4) I'm a fan. If too many racers can't afford it I'll have nothing to be a fan of.

5) & 6) Huh? I thought the AllStars format was based on passing points?

7) As I mentioned in a post above, that's more of a wish.


     Out of curiosity, what part of the country are in? How healthy is the local sprint car racing?

 



Yes the sport isnt where it was 30-40 years ago due to cost, but its grown (IMO) over the past 5 years,

6) All stars only qualify against the cars in their respecttive heat races so there isnt track variation over a full field of cars. Just the 8-10 cars in your heat.

Live in Ohio. Great weekly racing at Attica, Fremont, Wayne County, Atomic. Great 410 car counts. I recall one date in 2017 where Fremont, Wayne county, and Atomic had 100 410 teams racing on the same night.

As for non local racing theres Mansfield and Eldora for big events. Sprint car racing hasnt been this strong in quite some time.



blazer00
May 09, 2018 at 03:18:27 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on May 09 2018 at 02:37:48 PM

Next you wanna get rid of crew chiefs? Have drivers hop in rental rides like its a public go-kart track or something?



Are you not paying attention? Yeh, the bigger shows are doing just fine, and the touring series for the most part are doing well except in certain areas, but the weekly shows are getting smaller and disappearing. Evidently you're okay with that.



Murphy
May 09, 2018 at 03:38:46 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Keyboard Jockey on May 09 2018 at 10:13:35 AM

1) 4'x5' top wing. Sideboards to have same verticle offset on both sides. This would take away 20% of the downforce and some of the rudder effect. Good thought but what do you do with the existing 10,000's of 5X5 wings? What about wicker bills, pointed nosed, blunt noses, sideboard lead's, dish, flat, sideboard size? I see this potential rule change to be a logistical nightmare. you are talking about lowering engine costs, what ever they are able to take out of spending on the engines they would certainly make it back up by spending it on this new wing rule.  $15,000 minimum team expense


2) Narrower rear tires- maybe 20% narrower? 15" RR and 13" LR has some merit. Teams would be throwing away $10,000's of dollars in existing RR & LR wheels made obsolete, buying new 15" RR DBL wheels, and 13" LR DBL at $600 each to build inventory from scratch. $25,000 minimum team expense

3) A harder tire compound. Have it tested after the race. It hits the prescribed hardness; it passes. There would be no single manufacturer rules. Very fine line to walk on here, Immediately after the race? exact amount of time? temperature of the tire? what if the winner drives through a puddle? What if the tire blows at the finish line? 

4)50# added to the minimum weight. This would allow the addition of some more safety equipment without having to make weight allowances somewhere else. Heck- maybe they could put on some real nerf bars and tail bars. Compromise 25 lbs. 

5) A realistic engine rule. Let the major engine builders put their heads together and come up with specs that lower the costs, provide good, dependable engines and is easily inspected. I don't know what that would be- maybe something to do with compression or intake size, etc.? I bet the engine people have ideas.  Engine builders need to make money too, creating an everyone gets the same regardless of who you get it from for competition reasons is kind of like... I'm not even going to go there. It is a beautiful thing if you can build a better mouse trap than the guy next to you because you have done more homework than the guy next to you. There is a reason why teams have proprietary engine builders. 

6) A better qualifying process that does not involve time trials. I have an idea that would combine elements of random draw, passing points and back row challenges. The Murphy line-up system. Time trials is a part of 410 sprint car racing, ASCS already does that and it works for them. 

7) Have the damn track race ready when the cars hot lap.  Explain how this can be a rule, how it can actually be policed... if hot laps doesn’t roll off at 6:15 and the clock strikes 6:16 do you tell the teams to load up and head on down the road?

8) One established top wing angle. before the race? after the race? measured in victory lane? measured on a concrete slab before and after the race? what if the car has a flat LR tire? what if the car has a flat front tire? 

9) Only (X) number of inches in stagger. Maybe pre-set for each individual track. At who's cost?  RR's and LR's are inconsistent enough as it is. Does a team get 2 tires at the beginning of the night  everyone with the same chalk marks?  A 109 1/2" RR and a 99 1/2" LR. if you walked to the tire truck today and asked for those chalks your tires will come out anywhere from 103"-107" and 92"-95" if you are at Placerville the guy with the 107 and 93 is a lot better off. if you are at rolling wheels the guy with the 103 and 95 are probably better off. 

 

 

I do understand what you guys are trying to do and come up with but if you dont look at the little details all you are doing is spending a ton of other peoples money. 

I'll offer a few suggestions of my own, 

1. One RR tire all night, pick your compound and manage your RR tire. if it goes flat while not racing must be replaced with a used RR of the same compound. 

2. 1425 minimum weight, strongly encourage adding fire suppression systems. 

3. No wing slider, I don’t like it but it levels the playing field. 



Keyboard Jockey-

     In reference to your comments on tires above. Rather than making the tires 20% narrower to take away 20% of the bite and causing the expences you mention, do you think a harder compund accomplish the same thing?


     My thought is that if the car was fast, exciting and just a little bit more than an average  driver could handle with the gas mashed to the floor. I would want to put more of an element of driver skill and set-up into the mix.




Murphy
May 09, 2018 at 04:01:24 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on May 09 2018 at 03:02:09 PM

Yes the sport isnt where it was 30-40 years ago due to cost, but its grown (IMO) over the past 5 years,

6) All stars only qualify against the cars in their respecttive heat races so there isnt track variation over a full field of cars. Just the 8-10 cars in your heat.

Live in Ohio. Great weekly racing at Attica, Fremont, Wayne County, Atomic. Great 410 car counts. I recall one date in 2017 where Fremont, Wayne county, and Atomic had 100 410 teams racing on the same night.

As for non local racing theres Mansfield and Eldora for big events. Sprint car racing hasnt been this strong in quite some time.



   I see where I mixed AllStars and ASCS qualifying in my head.

    I'm going to say that it sounds like sprint car racing in Ohio sounds to be healthy and growing. I'm amazed and jealous at the same time. I'm in SD where it is almost dead. From what I read, Wa, CA, PA, TX and IA are not as lucky as Ohio. Car counts are shrinking and costs are skyrocketing.



Murphy
May 09, 2018 at 04:06:11 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: JP50138 on May 09 2018 at 12:18:24 PM

This is a good topic, and I hope it keeps going with positive feedback.  Obviously, everybody wants to see better racing and more passing, and I like a lot of what's been mentioned here, but overall I think sprint car racing needs to get back closer to its roots, with less rules!! Keep it simple.  Safety rules need to stay in place, including a minimum weight rule and minimum tubing thickness.  I think a wing rule is important, and it should be 20 sq. ft. (or maybe even 16 sq. ft.) but just as important would be a side panel rule, limiting the maximum cross section of sideboards on the top wing AND nose wing.   That would clean up the dirty air and take away downforce which would make passing easier and the racing better.  Keep the rules that you do have simple, and let the racers have room to be creative, which will also make more passing.  If you change the wing rules, you don't need to worry too much about the engine rules, make sure it's 410 cubic inches, and let them race.  They already de-tune the engines in a lot of places, so this would even the playing field even more, and make engines that are slightly down on horsepower more competitive.  I think with smaller wings it might be better to go to a softer tire, or at least have an option for a softer tire, which will also help passing and make better racing, and will allow the teams to have a couple of different strategies once it's main event time. 

With these simple changes, you could change the race formats, and give the best driver/car combination the opportunity to compete throughout the night and the best combination at the end of the night will win, and it will be exciting.  

 

 

 



    Wings- We had IMCA sprint cars with 4x4 wings and sideboards maybe 18" to 20" tall. They just did not look good. The reason I mention 4'x5' is that the looks wouldn't change much. On a track I'm either looking at a side view of the wing or an angled view that doesn't really highlite weather it's 4' wide or 5' wide. The sideboards need to be big enough for those sponsors' names! I think having them the same height would put more variables into the hands of the driver.



sprintfast
May 09, 2018 at 04:13:39 PM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 245
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on May 09 2018 at 02:54:45 PM

    Thanks for the reply. You seem like a passionate sprint car fan. At the rate things are going, where do you see this in 10 years? When I look back on it 40 years, 30,20 or 10 years, the sport is shrinking.

To your thoughts-

1)The WoO etc. depend on local cars to fill their fields. They don't carry enough cars on their own to be like NASCAR. My feeling is that if nothing is done to keep the sport from shrinking, it will look like Formula One racing.

2) I do like it. I want it to continue. Heck- I want it to grow.

3) Can't disagree there.

4) I'm a fan. If too many racers can't afford it I'll have nothing to be a fan of.

5) & 6) Huh? I thought the AllStars format was based on passing points?

7) As I mentioned in a post above, that's more of a wish.


     Out of curiosity, what part of the country are in? How healthy is the local sprint car racing?

 



20 years from now half the dirt tracks we have now will be closed. 

Most of the fans are older and not that many kids are getting into racing.

Tracks won't be able to make money with dwindling crowds.

 




Keyboard Jockey
May 09, 2018 at 04:14:23 PM
Joined: 04/16/2014
Posts: 430
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on May 09 2018 at 03:38:46 PM

Keyboard Jockey-

     In reference to your comments on tires above. Rather than making the tires 20% narrower to take away 20% of the bite and causing the expences you mention, do you think a harder compund accomplish the same thing?


     My thought is that if the car was fast, exciting and just a little bit more than an average  driver could handle with the gas mashed to the floor. I would want to put more of an element of driver skill and set-up into the mix.



A harder tire should take away bite in theory, hoever if you are spinning the tires more I think you will put ruber down on the track faster and in turn create a ruberdown race track more than you see now. 



tenter
May 09, 2018 at 05:28:12 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on May 09 2018 at 02:29:22 PM

How about.....

1) Sprint car racing is great the way it is.

2) If you don't like it go watch something else.

3) Owning and driving sprint cars isn't for everyone.

4) If you can't afford it, do something else.

5) Passing points suck.

6) The Allstars already have a fair qualifying format that should be adopted by everyone.

7) Track race ready for hot laps? if you mean some rubber laid down, a cushion built up, multiple grooves? Dont know how that would ever be accomplished for hot laps.



Finally.....somebody gets it !!!

 

Some of these yahoos want to obsolete all of your current equipment and make  you buy a bunch of new stuff. Those people make it very easy to see that they were never actually arund a sprint car, except by watching it from the stands, (nothing wrong with that , but don't try to change something you don't really know anything about).

 

 

BRR wants  teams to buy a couple more motors , new wheels , new wings , and then be stuck with a boat load of equipment that is'nt worth anything to anybody.



Big Right Ear
May 09, 2018 at 05:36:56 PM
Joined: 04/24/2016
Posts: 75
Reply

How about mandating no fuel stops? Run any sized tank you wish but if you run out of fuel tough shit. Or mandate a bigger fuel tank period. If they dont have enough fuel they lose.




Murphy
May 09, 2018 at 05:54:18 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: tenter on May 09 2018 at 05:28:12 PM

Finally.....somebody gets it !!!

 

Some of these yahoos want to obsolete all of your current equipment and make  you buy a bunch of new stuff. Those people make it very easy to see that they were never actually arund a sprint car, except by watching it from the stands, (nothing wrong with that , but don't try to change something you don't really know anything about).

 

 

BRR wants  teams to buy a couple more motors , new wheels , new wings , and then be stuck with a boat load of equipment that is'nt worth anything to anybody.



     You didn't call out anybody by name (except BRR), so I'll jump in and defend the yahoos. 

     Are you in Ohio as well? If so, you're probably seeing sprint car racing from a different perspective than the majority of us in other areas. I make no claims to be anything but a fan. I have been since 1973. I am concerned about where sprint car racing is headed. I'm not the only one. This forum is full of talk about thin fields and rising costs. 

     Seems like the 2 options would be A)Do ssomething about it or B) Don't do something about it. Which option is going to help the future of sprint car racing?

     I'd suggest that equipment gets obsoleted all the time: non-downtube chassis, wing configurations, steel motors, non-track spec tires, wheels, shock absorbers, etc...

tenter- You suggest that you are or have been "around a sprint car". Are you a current or former driver, owner, or pitcrew? What's your opinion on the future of 410 winged sprint car racing?



tenter
May 09, 2018 at 06:45:24 PM
Joined: 07/16/2008
Posts: 978
Reply

Most of what you suggested that was made obsolete was not because of rules.

Non-downtube chassis can still be used.

Wings , yes rules made some wings obsolete. At $650 to replace each , that hurt .

Steel motors are still legal. Most people switched when their steel motor was in need of being replaced.

Tires are replaced weekly anyhow. But not the wheels.

Shocks became obsolete because of technology, not rules.

I used BRR example because EVERYTHING he suggested would instantly make racing un-affordable to most because of the huge initial cost.

 

I've been around it for half a century. It goes in cycles. I see nothing wrong with the current product. If there were less classes , the racing would be like the 60's again. Not saying it was better than now either. I see a lot of complaining about current sprint car racing. I think it's as tough as ever to win.



linbob
May 09, 2018 at 07:09:18 PM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1649
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on May 09 2018 at 02:40:25 PM

The WoO has a record amount of teams following the tour this year. And the number of full-time followers has increased every year for the past 3 years. Not to mention you can now watch every race live on PPV for a very affordable price. I just find myself disagreeing with this topic and every reply in it.



they recently only had 19 cars at a track and others in low 20 count.  There are fewer and fewer local guys to ad to field.




Murphy
May 09, 2018 at 08:26:44 PM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: tenter on May 09 2018 at 06:45:24 PM

Most of what you suggested that was made obsolete was not because of rules.

Non-downtube chassis can still be used.

Wings , yes rules made some wings obsolete. At $650 to replace each , that hurt .

Steel motors are still legal. Most people switched when their steel motor was in need of being replaced.

Tires are replaced weekly anyhow. But not the wheels.

Shocks became obsolete because of technology, not rules.

I used BRR example because EVERYTHING he suggested would instantly make racing un-affordable to most because of the huge initial cost.

 

I've been around it for half a century. It goes in cycles. I see nothing wrong with the current product. If there were less classes , the racing would be like the 60's again. Not saying it was better than now either. I see a lot of complaining about current sprint car racing. I think it's as tough as ever to win.



      My point was that parts become obsolete- yes for various reasons. Is that a reason not to try and make the sport more viable? It's true that you could field a non-downtube car with a steel engine and older wheels and shocks., but who would?



Keyboard Jockey
May 10, 2018 at 08:31:15 AM
Joined: 04/16/2014
Posts: 430
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Murphy on May 09 2018 at 08:26:44 PM

      My point was that parts become obsolete- yes for various reasons. Is that a reason not to try and make the sport more viable? It's true that you could field a non-downtube car with a steel engine and older wheels and shocks., but who would?



What ever the rules are, the good drivers will still win. Sure if you lower the cost you will have more drivers but the results will not change much. 

If a driver struggles on a pair of 15" and 18" wide tires. Narrowing and hardening the tires up to slow the fast guys down will exponentially slow the struggling drivers down. 



racefanigan
May 10, 2018 at 10:32:38 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 230
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: SAF92 on May 09 2018 at 03:02:09 PM

Yes the sport isnt where it was 30-40 years ago due to cost, but its grown (IMO) over the past 5 years,

6) All stars only qualify against the cars in their respecttive heat races so there isnt track variation over a full field of cars. Just the 8-10 cars in your heat.

Live in Ohio. Great weekly racing at Attica, Fremont, Wayne County, Atomic. Great 410 car counts. I recall one date in 2017 where Fremont, Wayne county, and Atomic had 100 410 teams racing on the same night.

As for non local racing theres Mansfield and Eldora for big events. Sprint car racing hasnt been this strong in quite some time.



Luckily for you, you are in a 410 hot bed. Where I am from, growing up I was lucky if 10 360s showed up to Jackson MN on a weekly basis, I wwatched plenty of 6 car 360 features at that joint in the 2008-2011 era. Husets had about 12-15 360s and about 15 410s weekly too at the same time frame. I probbly didn't see a b main at a weekly show for 4 or 5 years.

Car counts have now picked back up in the area, but that is due to MSTS being really the only traveling series, Jackson moving to Fridays will accomodates Knoxville cars that want to race there. The times sprint cars are being run, the car counts are better, but we are having 1, maybe 2 sprint car shows within 3 hours of sioux falls every weekend, where as 10 years ago, there were 5 or 6 weekly programs. 

Now living in Lincoln NE, 410s are non existent with the exception of Knoxville, 360 cars are almost gone, 15 at the last NE360 shows at I-80, but racesavers are taking off, with a b and sometimes a c main every week at Eagle, that goes to show what the engine costs are doing. Sprint car racing is the top tier of short track racing, so it should be expensive, yes, but not this expensive. Look at it this way, 360 car counts were much higher 15-20 years ago (in my hometown area, that is) than they are now by far, but that is because it was affordable to race them at that time. Now, racesaver engines cost just at much as 360s did 15 years ago, and they are thriving. That just goes to show that upper level sprint car racing is pricing itself out. As someone who has grown up with a family who owned a winning 360 team, and owning and driving my own 305 car, I understand the costs that come into play. When we built my racesaver engine in 2015, the wuy who owned it physically spent $11,000, but he already had the injection and Mag for it, so in reality it was about a $14-$15K engine, which in 2018, is probably on the low side of average racesaver engine cost now days. Yes, you can build them for $5000, however, working in the racing industry with a company that builds them, most of the ones that get ordered are above the $14K mark. Which is still afordable IMO, rather than having 3 410 motors that cost you more than a 4 bedroom house does anymore just to be competitive at Knoxville.

Bottom line, IMO 410 racing is dying, 360 racing is dying even quicker, as the engine costs are just about on par with 410s, while racing for half the purse. I also believe that the Outlaws will always be there with their following, as the people that can afford to be on tour and spend that money, will do so, simply because they can afford to spend that money. Who knows though, when the time comes that there are no more local 410 cars to fill their fields. Just because more cars are following it right now than there were 5 years ago doesn't hold merit in my book. They used to have enough cars to have more than full fields at 2 tracks on the same day, granted 40 years ago, but still.




blazer00
May 10, 2018 at 10:39:36 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Keyboard Jockey on May 10 2018 at 08:31:15 AM

What ever the rules are, the good drivers will still win. Sure if you lower the cost you will have more drivers but the results will not change much. 

If a driver struggles on a pair of 15" and 18" wide tires. Narrowing and hardening the tires up to slow the fast guys down will exponentially slow the struggling drivers down. 



That is true.....but it's not about slowing them down as much as it is reducing costs so more can get back in to the sport.....and with new life breathes new talent......who's to say there aren't plenty of additional winners out there that can't get in because of costs.



Wesmar
May 10, 2018 at 11:11:32 AM
Joined: 09/29/2005
Posts: 626
Reply

 Following......



Murphy
May 10, 2018 at 11:23:38 AM
Joined: 05/26/2005
Posts: 3262
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Wesmar on May 10 2018 at 11:11:32 AM

 Following......



   Cool.

      Can you offer any insight from your perspective? Or, in a more general way if you wish, where do you see the sport heading?




Keyboard Jockey
May 10, 2018 at 12:13:48 PM
Joined: 04/16/2014
Posts: 430
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on May 10 2018 at 10:39:36 AM

That is true.....but it's not about slowing them down as much as it is reducing costs so more can get back in to the sport.....and with new life breathes new talent......who's to say there aren't plenty of additional winners out there that can't get in because of costs.



For whom are you reducing the costs for?  

Racer A: $100,000 budget for a season,

Racer B: $20,000 budget for the season. 

Racer C: cant afford to race.

 

Magical change the rules for teams so the budget needed to race is half of what it was last year. 

Racer A is now going to spend $50,000 on other things to win races, re design parts for maximum efficency. 

Racer B only has $10,000 to spend on making things better. 

Racer C can now afford to buy in to go racing. 

 

 

Racer A is still $40,000 faster, slice the pie any way you want. You may get another team "back in" and I don't disagree that new life breathes new tallent one bit, but how are you measuring new life from past seasons to new seasons?



blazer00
May 10, 2018 at 12:55:30 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Keyboard Jockey on May 10 2018 at 12:13:48 PM

For whom are you reducing the costs for?  

Racer A: $100,000 budget for a season,

Racer B: $20,000 budget for the season. 

Racer C: cant afford to race.

 

Magical change the rules for teams so the budget needed to race is half of what it was last year. 

Racer A is now going to spend $50,000 on other things to win races, re design parts for maximum efficency. 

Racer B only has $10,000 to spend on making things better. 

Racer C can now afford to buy in to go racing. 

 

 

Racer A is still $40,000 faster, slice the pie any way you want. You may get another team "back in" and I don't disagree that new life breathes new tallent one bit, but how are you measuring new life from past seasons to new seasons?



You seem to think that those of us with ideas think that it's easy to change the landscape of sprint car racing. It isn't. Drivers, car owners, promoters, track owners, sponsors, engine suppliers, chassis suppliers, parts suppliers in general.....all of those have to be considered.....and don't forget the fans! So put out all the numbers you can dream up, and why this or that won't work. In the meantime, what do you propose to stimulate the sport and open doors for new  (or preious) teams to become active racers? Do you even realize that in most parts of the nation car counts are going away. Even in the historically well known hotbeds? BTW.....your numbers make no sense. This is not and never will be an inexpensive sport. And yes there will always be teams that are better off than others. The difference these days, is that only the multi-millionare can afford to put together the best teams. News for you.....when Karl Kinser first became prominant he didn't have much money....he had smarts....Same with Wolfgang and the rest of the top runners. The big money followed and gradually hooked up with those guys that were the best back in the day, and it simply got out of hand in the past 15-20 years.





Post Reply
You must be logged in to Post a Message.
Not a member register Here.
Already registered? Please Login





If you have a website and would like to set up a forum here at HoseHeadForums.com
please contact us by using the contact link at the top of the page.

© 2024 HoseHeadForums.com Privacy Policy