Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

My take on this is Donny had to take a few yrs to hone his skill where Kyle has something that don't come along except once in a while. But by all means keep doubting & debating.

imo no. i don't think either of them have the skills that Sammy or Wolfie had when it comes to making the car right.

The arguement isn't whether he shows up to race for the win, 748, of course he does. A real long term winner understands ya don't win em all, so make the very best of those nights you don't.  As for the truck race JU, again of course he was there to win. But after repeatedly hitting the wall trying to reel in Wallace,Jr, he should have settled in and accepted second place money for his truck owner. Instead, with three to go he bangs the wall again and settles for 26th place. Not very smart in my book.

Do you even remotely think he'd be where he is today if he "raced for position"?  Of course not, car owners and more importantly sponsors want to see the car in victory lane. 

And you are correct when comparing him to Sammy or wolfie.... but that's for another discussion, Is the WoO as tuff competitor wise today as it was 30 year ago?

We'll just have to agree to disagree like usual, hahaha. If he was running for a truck series championship, then yes, it would have been stupid. But, at that point in time (2014) if you put Kyle Larson in your truck at Eldora I would expect you know it's either gonna end up in victory lane or looking like one of the rental cars from Days of Thunder. He wanted it bad.

I doubt Harry Scott lost much sleep over it.

You might be correct..................but no one has ever brought a car to the front with a car that is so wrong like Kyle.  

Championship over Schatz if he tried?  Maybe you are correct.  He doesn't have the ability to bring a car home in 3rd place with all 8 cylinders in tact and all 4 wheels on.  However, I firmly believe he would have no problem eclipsing Schatz in wins in his first year on the tour.  Not saying he would---------but I would make that bet. (too bad we'll never know)

I cannot imagine the momentum he would pick up if he got to run a winged 410 for an entire season.  He has been doing his damage in a handful of races.  Amazing.  And, let's not forget, he is still maturing as a driver and is only going to continue to gain experience.  

Also, I am pretty sure Schatz never passed Kyle for a position this year on the track.  The same can't be said the other way.  (you can double check me on that but I think I watched them all--my memory ain't what it used to be)

I hope he continues to run a sprinter, and even more often than he has. And I hope he does well. He is fun to watch, and I don't mind a bit that a part timer can come along and show the current batch of Outlaws from time to time that they aren't invincible. Maybe proves what I believe to be true, that the Outlaws aren't what they used to be..... That also may account for why there are more non Outlaw drivers winning features these days.

There's no denying Larson's ability.  What he's done hasn't been seen in a long time in that he comes in to a few races and cleans house.  However to say that he would do that night after night, I don't know that he could.  When he shows up to a race, I imagine he goes to the races or tracks he likes.  If he wrecks, who cares?  He's not racing for points.  As some have pointed out he races with wreckless abandonment.  He flies into a race he's looking forward to and leaves right afterwards.  He doesn't have the day to day grind of sprint car racing or a championship in sprint cars to worry about he's there to have fun.  I think he could have more wins but not finish higher in points than Schatz.  I guess we'll never know but if Schatz could race with that wreckless abandonment when he wanted, how many wins would he have?

I once asked Guy Forbrook back when he owned the #5 car, of all the drivers he'd had in his car, who he considered the best. His answer was this......Jac was the fastest driver he'd had and really wanted to win, but Lasoski was the smartest.......Lasoski was a winner and most importantly a money driver. If he had a fifth place car or whatever, he'd bring it home rather than wadding it up. He did well with Jac, but his most success was with Danny. 

I for one, think that the outlaws are tougher competitor wise and equpiment wise. They are the best drivers in the country, and they all have the best equipment in the country. When everyone has the top of the line motors, cars, bolt ons etc, it takes a real driver to make it go faster than the rest, which is why, as much as people, myself included, don't like seeing Schatz win, we all need to appreciate what he really is. He is right up there with Wolfgang, Kinser, and Sammy as far as im concerned, and quite honestly I would put him a level above Sammy and Equal to Steve and Doug.

The difference between today and 30 years ago, is the fact that you can no longer BUY speed, except in rare developmental instances. I grew up around Doug, and I remember him telling me that when he was racing with Weikert, when something new and improved came out and they released 10 of them, they didn't buy one, but they bought all 10. This way when something new came out, they were the only ones that had it, and the only ones who could gain an advantage off of it.

It is like this across the board in motorsports now days, It used to be that a local 360 racer could jump in a top notch car at an outlaw show and be competitive, now, a local 360 racer is going to have a hard time making the show, because the cars are so equal and those drivers and crews have refined their talents, they are just that much better than everyone else.

Thats part of what impressed me with Jimmie Johnsons championships compared to Richard Petty, Petty was in a time where you could spend more money and have an advantage, Johnson was in a time where everyone had the same stuff and you had to be that much of a better driver and have that much better crew to get it done. I feel like sprint cars are the same way anymore. As much as we don't want to admit, even though the cars are so stuck down now days compared to what they used to be, they may be easier to drive, but, on tour especially, nobody has a mechanical advantage, like was commonplace in the 80s. Now everyone has a 950 HP motor, everyone has a cookie cutter car, everyone has the same rears, everyone is running the same tires, brakes, etc. the cars are essentially the same, the difference is the people who can figure out how to make what they have go fast and the people who struggle. (And I hate to say struggle, because I'm not sure theres a lot of people on tour that are lost, just not as perfect as others.)

BTW, this is not a knock at all to the greats of the past in any form of motorsports, because you still had to be a damn good driver to accomplish what the big 3 did, and thats why they will be at the top of the lists until the end of sprint car racing. I just feel like you could have more advantages other than driving ability than you can now.

I don't believe for one second Larson races at tracks he likes.  I believe he races at any track Silva can deliver a car to when he has a day off.  

Day to day grind to run the WOO?  That would not be an issue with him at all.  He runs a full-time racing series now which takes 36 Thursday thru Sundays out of 52.  Then, on top of that, he runs 20-25 sprint car races during the summer, the chili bowl, and in the past, the Eldora truck race.  As grueling as the WOO season is, it would seem like a vacation compared to his current situation.  I know it's more races, but with the WOO, you don't spend 4 days at one track for one race.  The Nascar schedule is the equivalent of 144 days at the track---as I believe most are expected to be at the track by Thursday, correct?  Even if Friday arrival were allowed, this is still 108 days at the track.  

I agree with you in bringing the car home in one piece---as someone eluded to, look at the Jac vs. Danny argument.  I do, however, believe he would win more races.  

In response to the ongoing idea (from other posters) that the WOO is weaker than in the past, I still believe this to be completely false.  I, along with others, believe the opposite.  They have simply made it look "weaker" with the equality of the cars.  Period.  As in the 70's, 80's and 90's, there are only a couple of drivers who looked superior.  However, it doesn't shine quite as bright due to the equipment.  The top two (IMO) talents that strap into winged sprint cars at this current time, are Donny and Kyle.  And, in a pure talent evaluation, I give the edge to Kyle.  

No disrespect to yours or anyone else's opinion-----that's just mine.  This is the only fun part of the off-season.  I enjoy all of the hypothetical banter!    

I like hypothetical, also.     One thing that no one has brought up is this......IF Donny had to go up against Kyle and Kyle's all out driving style night after night, Is there an outside chance that maybe Donny would pick up his game and drive harder? I would think, that if Kyle were getting the larger share of the wins, that Donny would do just that. He would be forced to. Unless of course, Kyle's driving style caused enough DNF's or crippled cars, that Donny could resume buisness as usual. 

As for the Old vs New WoO drivers and cars. Not brought in to the discussion has been this notion. When looking at the all time win list for the WoO, It's obvious that the drivers with the largest win totals, got the bulk of their wins against Kinser. So could that mean that Kinser was easier to beat than Schatz is? Or are their simply less drivers today good enough to beat Schatz, who is the best of  his day? After all, they have the same equipment as Schatz, Right???? At least that's what many say. Now of course, many of today's drivers haven't been around long enough to determine what thay can or will do against Schatz. And maybe, the bulk of those drivers will not be competeing against a prime Schatz in a few years, but instead be chasing a Gravel or Sweet. Much the same as many drivers were no longer chasing Kinser the last eight or ten years of his career.

Oh, and too, those with the largest numbers of wins on the all time WoO list, were also having to beat each other. 

 My belief really is this. Take the top drivers from every era, and I believe they would have been successful no matter what era they drove in. For certain, the older drivers didn't lack the balls to go fast! And they really had to out drive the other guy. Kind of sounds like today.

NOT at Knoxville.

Don't you think Kyle could adjust his style if he was running for points? I do...

He has no reason to play it safe now...

You are absolutely right Blazer, Something that I missed in my post, is the fact that in my opinion, if you put Donny back in the 80s with the big 3, I am a believer that it would have been the big 4. Same as if the big 3 were in their prime in 2017. As I stated, theres no doubt in my mind that they were the best drivers around. You could buy speed, but you still had to drive the car. I for one think that if Donny were to be put back in that time, he may just have more impressive stats than he has now, although, you are right, he would have to be racing against those 3 at the same time.

Man, I sure love an actual debate, where people can express feelings and opinions on a subject without the nit picking and name calling. I'll be one of the first who will show that they disagree with someone, but I will also be the first to buy that person a beer if I ever run into them at the race track. Who knows, you might even get someone to agree with you on some aspects! This is what a message board is all about!

We'll find out on the Donny stepping up his game this year....................from Gravel, not Kyle.  

MORE equal equipment would be the better way to put it.  Not equal.  Logan ain't running what Donny runs.  However, the equipment is equal enough for Logan's team to nail the setup and win if Donny's team misses it.   

Kyle on the other hand?  If they drew a card every night to see what car they strapped into, I would put my money on him every single time. 

Once again, JMO.  You're not wrong...............I'm not right. 

That's a good thought. Is he less aggressive in NASCAR? Maybe he's one of those rare leopards that can change it's spots. Jac couldn't, but Jac was Jac.......and everybody enjoyed him and still enjoy him!

Will Gravel adjust his style at all? He's shown he can win, but can he race for points? There are many who overlook the fact that Sweet finished ahead of Gravel in the points, and he only had five wins compared to Gravel's eighteen. If Sweet finds a way to turn the better finishes in to wins, Gravel better have an answer. Donny followed Gravel for around 21-22 laps at the Nationals, and said after the race he didn't think Gravel's car would hold together at the pace he was running. 

If Larson had a car like Schatz that ran how many races without failure ? heaven help the rest of the WOO if that was the case & he ran full time !!!!

Larson came to how many tracks the 1st time & won. Couldn't find that at Limaland though.

I think he can (if he wants to...) He keeps improving. Who was it on this board who predicted over 10 wins last season? Lots of us thought he was getting carried away, but he was right.

First time I ever saw Gravel run was my very first sprint race,  8 years ago, maybe Empire Super Sprints or Patriots (?) at little Clinton County Raceway in the woods north of Port Royal. I was surprised there was even a sprint car from Watertown Ct., don't even remember who won, but I doubt it was Gravel. Now he's pushing The Mighty Donnie Schatz!