Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I think the $139 figure was a little low, more like $189 for a brand new pro twin tube non adjustable. No, he doesnt mean to run the same shocks on all 4 corners or the same shock all night, i dont think. Rather limit what they can use to non adjustable twin tubes. keep shock costs cheap, allow these guys to buy bad shocks from top teams for $20-$40 a piece, send them in to be rebulilt for $60-$100 and get a good shock out of the deal for $80-$140, depending on what needs to be done with them. This will allow guys to do that, and still being competitive since guys are not buying penske, ARS, CSI or even afcos and pros, that are all out adjustable with custome valving and gas canisters for $500 a piece.

Sorry, the Pro A series NA are $189.00 list. I was thinking with the contigencies and discounts. I guess that may not be fair as not everyone or their series may have those discounts. No not all night, and I know someone will come along and say you can buy one set of $3,500 double adjustables and have every valving instead of having to buy 20 shocks, but thats not relaistic. 8 tops. Maybe.

Yes, thanks, right on. No reason this cant work and save that extra $2,000 for tires, fuel or whatever.  Alot less whining about "so and so can afford those shocks and I cant, and thats why he wins". Then that keeps him/her from running out to buy them too, when they cant afford it. Thats how people get driven out.

Right. There will always be people who want to have it all. When my dad was owning cars back before adjustable shocks were big, we had roughly 70 shocks at our disposal, switched to adjustable pros and had about 20 and that could cover every possible combination.

I had my own 305 and 360 car in 2015, and was able to cover most every scenario that we needed, granted not every combination possible, but we had a combination for every track condition, with 10 shocks, 2 of wich were LR rebound adjustable. I had a total of roughly $700 into my shocks, got them all used and sent them in to be rebuilt, and we ran very well against some good 305/360 competition in SD/MN/IA.

Is your argument that double adjustable shocks are a superior advantage to a guy only running twin tube shocks? Or is your argument that double adjustable shocks are just too expensive and giving someone the option to run them would stop someone from getting to sprint car racing? 

So a guy goes and buys 8 slade pro twin tube shocks at $230 each to total $1840. How is that any different than a guy that buys a set of 4 used supershox that are listed on hoseheads for $1400 a set and then go buy 4 used shocks as backups for $300 totaling $1700. 

If your true argument is about adjustable shocks thats fine just say so, if you are going to change the rule to twin tubes only I can live with that too! When a guy buys 8-12 twin tube FK, Slade Pro's, Slade Black widows, ECT...  and spends $2000-3000 on twin tubes, will you still be ok with that?

Im really not trying to be an asshole but I dont see the argument to outlaw double adjustable shocks unless someone feels they are being treated unfairly if they cant afford them because double adjustable shocks provide such an advantage to someone who only can run twin tube shocks. 

I believe the argument is total cost. Yes, you can buy a set of non adjustable FK twintubes for twice as much as a Pro, but you also have other costs that are less with standard shocks.

I've had work done on standard twin tube shocks, single adjustable, and double adjustable. Just from a local shock guy, not someone like SBS or anything like that, but the average cost just to open a shock up is roughly $30 on non adj, $60 on single adj, and $100 on double adjustable. then getting into revalve and anything else you need, you're looking at $60+ on non adj, $100+ on single adj, and $150+ on double adjustable, and probably more than that yet on double adjustable. Problem comes into play where someone has a set of Super Shocks, where you can't just send them to anyone to get them done, I'd bet theres very few places that will do shocks like that other than Super Shox them selves. And those that will won't charge what your local shock guy will. 

Also, single adj and double adj has more going on inside the shock, leaving more failure points.

Ill stick by my, no gas, no external canister thought process any day. adjustability? of course, Ill be the first one to buy adjustable shocks if they're allowed. If they're not allowed, I wont.

Just like with anything, you can spend more. Sure you can buy a set of 8 non adj pros for $1100 or a set of 8 non adj FK's for $2200. You can also buy a set of used super shox for $1500, but you can also buy a set of double adjustable ARS Gas with canister for $4000. (yes, you can, I had a set of $3500 ARS shocks on a micro in 2013).

Fact is, people will spend what they can, the goal is to limit the spending as much as we can. I think limiting to non asdjustable twin tubes where teams can spend at max $2000 on a set, which will leave them with 4 for the car and 4 spares, at the very least, sounds better than having teams buy 4 new all out custom double adjustable gas with canister and prototype pistons with the newest oil for $4000 on a set of 4. if it gets to that, what was the point of starting a money saving class?

Im the last one who wants to start a pissing match, Just as I can tell you are as well. But I'm always up for a good debate!

I dont disagree with you one bit. If someone is starting a new class for saving costs and they make a rule that says no adjustable shocks I'm good with that, but when a guy then goes and pumps $3500 into a set of twintubes there cant be any bitching from the guys that made the no adjustable shock rule because of cost. 

Well put, that is what I am trying to get across. On a division that was born to be affordable and based off a crate platform, do it 100%. Not bashing Slade, ARS, FK... they have their obvious advatages and niche in series that WERENT developed to make racing more entry level and budget minded. All I am saying... is spec motor = spec shocks. Heres your part numbers you can run, and they are $189.00 max per shock. Thats it. If you are going to bother putting a 7k dollar motor in a national level USAC quality wingless car, why bother.

I hate using the used argument, because you can find used open motors for 8-10k, that doesnt mean you should be able to run that in a crate class, because it costs as much as a new crate motor.

If you couple a crate style motor, with spec shocks and driveline, you achieved 80% of harmony between low and big budget teams. Let them argue about who has the better hauler at that point. lol and I dont even really like spec/crate racing all that much.

I agree 100%, I was meaning a $189 PRO/Afco/QA1 style twin tube, part number specific. Not the purpose built shocks from builders.

Here is where I disagree, what stops me from pulling that shock apart myself playing with the shims in it and running it to my buddies house down the street that has a shock dyno to make it into the same dyno numbers you would get from one of the other high dollar twin tube purpose builders? If this is a new series why not try to get those guys involved in making shocks for the series with a spec part number on them. If you could garuntee those guys 500 new shocks worth of business every year I bet they would look at lowering the price a little bit on their shocks or at least entertain it. Quantity can drive price. All you are doing by making a spec shock from PRO/AFCO is giving them the oportunity to charge anything they want, that $189 shock is now $199 because they need to add engineering time, sales time, engraving time to make that stamped spec shock. How will the shocks be regulated? Does the shock have to read within +/-5% of what the shock dyno said when it was stamped? Does that shock have to be sent back to speedway or to an official shock dyno for testing?Or is it ok to modify the internals of the shock? If yes then the spec shock doesnt make any sense. 

I truly understand where you are coming from but in the big picture spec shocks will not make things any less expensive. Also all of the rules need to be enforced, here are my suggestions for trying to reduce costs on a limited class. 

No Titanium anywhere on the car, magnet check everything that could be Ti. pull the side covers off of rear ends to check. (would requite you to really know what you are buying if you are buying used though) drive shafts need to be steel along with u-joints. No Carbon body panels. Brakes can be steel or Alum only. Same RR tire all night. If there is a question in HP on engines make the exhaust tube diameter small. static wing slider (any angle)  that is what I have off the top of my head for now. 

    I can see a little problem with your scenio. Yes, you can buy those used shocks today for $1400 today. But would there be enough of an ongoing supply of used shocks like that verses a steady supply of new shocks?

I come from a shock background and though the argument can be made that you can buy DA's and only have 8 shocks as opposed to Multiple "Non-adjustables" to cover the same dampening, the fact remains if you crash a DA shock it cost more to fix than if you had crashed a Non-Adj shock.  I think for what I'd like to accomplish I don't want to do a "Crate Only" class, I like the UMSS Traditional rules the best and if a GM602 guy wants to run he can.  As far as shocks go, I think the idea of a "Twin Tube" only rule covers things well enough, if you wanna pony up for DA's, fine but your repair bills will just be higher too.  If you'd rather run, SA's or NA's then your repairs will be less.  I'm not into legistlating every last little thing, minimum weight and No Titanium on rotating assemblies including QC internals, yokes and drive shaft.  I really don't like the GM602 class and I know the NEWS guys have had trouble with the cars not having enough torque to keep the car from over hooking, that and the GM602 is junk on the inside.  I want a lower cost class, not a dumbed down follow the leader class. 

Thank you all for the input its been very helpful and much more responsive than IOW could hope to be.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

Sounds like you are asking all the right questions and have a pretty solid plan. Best of luck to you, it sure took off up here, and hope the same for you! That area needs more open wheel for sure.

Copied from the UMSS rulebook:

All shocks must be constructed of aluminum or steel. No cockpit adjustable shocks or other suspension components allowed. No remote or external canister type shocks allowed. One shock per wheel. May be rebound or compression adjustable on the shock only. No double adjustable shocks allowed. Gas shocks , single adjustable, or nonadjustable are allowed.

Couple other things I noted while doing some research. RaceDoc can correct me if I am wrong but I am 99 percent sure Jeremy Kerzman runs a 602 with the UMSS and he won 4 of the 10 features he was in this year racing against the LS and small block B-Mod type engines. I also noticed the 604 is priced at $7500 while the 602 is $4300 on the Pace Performance site.

I think if you are starting from scratch making a non adjustable shock rule would work fine. If you are trying to get racers from other series to come support you that have existing equipment is where a hole gets dug.  What would be the method of teching the drivelines for detecting titanium, drive shaft and u-joint I am thinking that stick out?

Jeremy ran his SBC motor this last season in the UMSS. He ran the 602 the year before. The only 602 in the series this year was Neal Matuska and he did pretty good in it.  I would guess that in our series there are about 6 LS engines, one 602 crate, and the rest are the SBC engines.  Harry Hanson and I have the only CT525s but they won't be allowed anymore. We will be grandfathered in with ours but we have to put a 6800 rpm chip in next year because I guess I was too dominant this year (sarcasm alert) and Harry's 10th place finish in the only race he raced with us last year.

Thanks for the correction Jeff. Pretty cool how you can get that CT525 at HP levels that can compete in three classes.

At Ohsweken in Canada we have a 602 winged crate division. We use a 4 barrel holley. It's the cheapest most economical way to race a sprint car and when the track is slick Ohsweken is a fast 3/8" there is very little difference in lap times. When we started in 2014 we had average 12-14 cars every week and now we have 30-35 cars and a full b main every week. It's an amazing division. Dirtcar has tried to start something similar but they haven't really promoted it the way they should. It's called the prosprint division. We run an htc rr (same as the 360s use so we can get their used tires. If there are no other local sprint cars You can buy spec prosprint plated lr hoosiers foabout 150$ and rrs for $200. 

The rules package we have is there are 3 authorized engine builders. Our 602s run an oval oilpan plus they need the back of the cam drilled, so they go to 1 of the 3 builders and while the pan is being changed and the cam drilled they inspect and seal them. Our tech guy inspects the seals all the time, check the valve spring pressure and checks the cams with the cam dr as well. also we have the option of sending any engine to the dyno at any time if anyone is winning "too much" (this has happened a few times and the engines were legal). Pace performance basically took our rules package and ised it to develop their sealed 602 for the dirtcar series. Only difference is they run an msd.

We use the stock hei distributor that comes free with the 602 with a small gel 12v battery and super cheap spec shoenfeld headers. No titanium except for inside the rearend (so if you buy a used rearend you don't have to rip it apart to check for ti. No "gas" shocks allowed so everyone pretty much runs reg pros or afcos. We run a max gear rule. 

I know that everyone is always going to have differing opinions on this but I think this is the best thing that could happen to entry level sprint car racing. We get tons of wheelspin which is what you need to even everyone out and we only use 10-15 gallons of fuel a night. Some guys buy new tires but used tires work completely fine (I won 3 features in a row last year on a tire I got out of the garbage). The racing is super super competitive and tough. Because it's so cheap we've got car owners again who put drivers in their cars (there are 8-10 cars out of 35-40 that have seperate owners and drivers, not family members or anything, just car owners who put drivers in their cars) which is amazing because that is getting more and more rare. I've raced pretty much everything and I absolutely love this division. When the track is slick there's honestly very little difference between them and a 360. Motors generally last around  2 seasons (40-45 races) and then you can get a new 602 for 1/4 of the price of a good 360 rebuild. If you're looking for something to start from scratch in my opinion this is the way to go. You can find the races on YouTube by searching Ohsweken speedway crate sprints.

We had ninety races on our first Racesaver engine.  Started with a donated block and a 1971 Hilborn injection and a mag left over from our 360.  Local engine builder.  Ran with used Hoosiers and new American Racers until the RR Hoosier was required.  Racesaver circuit has enabled us to run twenty different tracks in the past six years.  Believer in winged racing especially when novice drivers are involved.   Not a believer in fees and monopolies.  Been a fun six years.