Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

     If you had 2 cars that both weighed 1500 or 1600 pounds and one had titanium bolts and lightweight parts in the moving parts of the engine, drive-line and suspension, would that driver have an advantage over you with your standard weight parts?

Wow, somebody's a little sensitive. He is referring to the car as it comes across the scales. Schatz has been known to have a heavier car than everybody else. Like somebody else mentioned they have witnessed his car roll across the scales at 1550. I'm surprised not a lot of people have caught on to this. You ever notice Schatz doesn't usually time in very well but once the track slicks off he is a rocket? Heavier car equals more grip when the track slicks off. Pretty simple concept and they have perfected it over the years. 

There is already a professional dirt division with a much higher weight.  Its called super late model.  They are allowed an engine that can tow it around and still be exciting as well.  Please stop watering down our once far superior sport.  Late models are going to be faster that a sprint car if we keep deballing.  If there weren't umpteen other hobby open wheel classes, it would make sense.  There are more than enough cheaper choices to go around. The NFL mandating chicks would make more sense than making a 410 available for an hourly blue collar worker.

Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

I once saw a famous Indiana driver in a mishap at one of the Indiana bullrings and got the rear bumper knocked off among other things. On the ensuing yellow another car came by and ran over that bumper and flipped. When they went out to get the offending bumper off the track they could hardly lift it.....it was solid steel instead of tubing

I was not.  I believe their car without the driver may make it across the scale and not be DQ'd.   IMO - that is their secret that no one else has caught onto yet.  The car actually weighing more HELPS them when the track becomes super slick.  Having a Super Light car only helps when the track is at optimum conditions (time trials).

So you think Sammy has never caught on to your weight theory?  He has always, always had the lightest car possible.  He's lost races due to running out of fuel because he didn't want to have the extra weight.  Sammy has always been thought as one of the very best minds when it comes to making a race car work.  I don't think I've ever seen him bolt weight on when the track gets slick.  He won lots and lots of races back in the day.  Same for Wolfie.  But you could be right.  The 15 team could be the only one to ever figure out that more weight is better.  If so I'm even more confused.  Donnie looks smaller to me now than he did a few years ago.  It appears he lost some weight.  It's not real easy for most people to do that.  Why would he put himself thru that if more weight actually helped him in the car?

I think it's about Where the weight is located more than just the weight itself.  Weight in some areas may help the cars performance and handling and weight in other areas may hurt it.

Steve Kinser said that sometimes his weight helped him and sometimes it hurt him (depending on track conditions) the last few years he raced full-time.

If you pay attention when a team does bolt on weight, they are very precise with where they locate it, if only having the weight mattered they wouldn't care where it went.  For Example, having a lightwight Block on the Engine may not be as ideal as many beleive since it seems a lot of teams almost always bolt the weight in that vicinity.

As for Donny, he's no longer a spring chicken (age) and he's getting in better shape.  Can't fault a guy for that.  Does it help him in the car?  probably.  My guess is that was not the main motiviation for it though.

This 285 pound guy would absolutely love an increase in weight!  I have a ton of lightweight parts on my car and I still roll across the scale at 1725 in a 360!

Brandon McLain
United Sprint Car Series Driver
2014 Season
National Rookie of the Year!
National Points - 8th
Southern Points - 3rd
Asphalt Points - 3rd
18 Races, 3 Top 5's, 14 Top 10's

Our last 410 was a J&J with no titanium on it other than valves, and with a 140 pound driver we would scale at around 1440-1450 after the feature with 5-8 gallons of fuel in the tank. We could have gotten close to the weight rule but like everyone knows, it would have cost a serious amount of money. Tim Shaffer once told me that the biggest difference he noticed the first time he got to drive a lightweight car was how much quicker it reacted to everything from throttle, brakes, and driver input than a car built with steel/aluminum parts does. Changing the weight rule won't affect the high dollar teams all that much financially, as they buy everythin gnew from year to year anyway. It will hurt the smaller teams who maybe use parts a little longer and now have to go buy replacements if some of their parts are outlawed. 

"stock car guys" dont all add weight for the slick. From a Modified stand point not one of us at 95% of the races we ran added weight when the track slicked off. We adjust our birdcages index by moving the points at which is bar is bolted to the chassis to create more drive. Increasing weight is more a myth with todays suspensions. The adding weight guys are still using the same idea that was used when leafsprings were more common. 

I'm not saying we didn't move the weight to different spots but normally weight was not added.

I find it interesting that some think a heavier car equals more grip.

Adding weight to a vehicle may add some grip when the vehicle is in a static (lacking in movement) state, but on the race track, race cars are anything but static.

Heavier cars roll more. When they roll, they transfer more weight. When they transfer more weight, its harder to keep the rear tires equally loaded. Maximum traction is achieved when both rear tires are equally loaded (or close to equally loaded).

Building the car as light as possible and keeping the weight as low as possible is advantagous. 

I do not agree with you.  There  is competition with several manufactures.  The steel parts will remain about the same as today.  You have to remember to raise weight limit say 25 lb will mean more cars as  they set today will be closer to min, weight.  Most are over the weight limit now, even with Tit. parts.  If you do not have a 140 lb driver you are probably over weight.

This is not 100% true either. Maximum forward traction is achieved when both tires are equally loaded, but on a circle track car that is not the goal. Otherwise there would be no reason for guys to laser out a car to get exact roll centers where they want them. If you watch any race Donny tends to beat the guys in the corners. I guarantee his car is not equally loaded on both tires in the corner because you don't want them to be that creates a very tight car because it wants to go straight not turn. Most people don't realize that because they are thinking a general terms not from a true driving term. 

If you want to beat DS you have to get a car that will beat people in the center of the corner. Sometimes a driver can make up for a car that is setup a different way, but a car that can beat anyone in the corners like DS does will be the most consistant and more than likely win much more often. He doesn't have the best straightline speeds most nights he has the best average speed all the way around the track but especially in the corners. 

You are correct according to one of the greatest of all time! Wolfgang once shared with me many years ago that being the fastest car down the straights was of very little intrest to him........but, being able to carry that momentum through the center of the corners and off made the car appear to be the fastest on the straights. In reality, it was how the car drove through the corners that enabled him to overtake and pass cars anywhere on the track....corners and straights. Passing faster cars wasn't necessarily that big of a problem if the car he was in was set up properly. And too, of course, he knew how to wheel the damn things!

Should Weight Limit be Increased? Yes. For more safety advances.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

What safety advancements would these be?  4 door bars?  Roofs?  Hey lets make them so heavy they can never flip.  Oh wait, fenders, we need fenders.  Shit we've gone this far,  lets add a starter.  Look,  it's a late model.   

Have you ever seen a 1700 lb sprint car crash?  The extra weight tears the hell out of the frame, and I believe it makes them less safe.  I guess we could build the frame out of 0.120 wall tubing.

Ok,  I'm going fishing now.

What is the weight of a Silver Crown car with a full fuel load on the first lap? What wall thickness frame tubing do they use? 

Just asking. Existing 410 and 360 weigh limits are Ok as they are.