Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Looking at starting up an economy non-wing sprint class here in Georgia and was looking for info and opinions.  I have a few questions for anybody with knowledge or interest to answer. 

The 4 options being considered are:

1)  GM602 w/4 barrell (400 HP)

2)  GM604 w/4 barrell (450 HP)

3) UMSS/Northern Renegades 5.3 LS 2 Barrel (430 HP)

Ok, so we know the GM602 when combined with a 4 barrell carb on alcohol makes 400HP and the GM604 makes 450HP, but what about the Racesaver 305's w/Injection, whats reasonable power to expect for those? 

How often does a Racesaver 305 need to be rebuilt?

Dose anybody run the Racesaver 305 w/4 barrell carb instead of injection?  Power?

Any input or advice is appreciated, but remember my state(GA) has ZERO sprint cars of any kind, except for a traveling midget series, so trying to persuade a decidely late model crowd that sprints are a better way to go will be tough.  I myself have been into late models for 30 years but costs and the amount of time required and equipment needed to maintain one has taken the fun right out of it for a lot of guys, many have opted  just to walk away...  I think an economy, non-wing class could be a solution that provides an exciting class forracers and fans.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

I have no advice for but best of luck starting up the series! Spreading different divisons through the country are good for variety and excitement for fans.

604s for the Wisconsin wingless make no more than 450hp by rule. They also have a build it yourself option. Class has grown incredibly well for the short time it has been around.  

Take a look at the CT525!  They have had great success with it in the 305 class at the Knoxville Raceway.  This engine is coming on strong, it is very versitle and is being used in many different classes in racing, making it a very good cross over engine . . .

In general the more power you allow the more money it will cost due to wear and tear on parts and tires. The UMSS allows small blocks and LS motors running a 2 barrell 500 CFM carb that makes about 400 HP. I know for a fact that some of the guys that run up front and win with the UMSS have less than 10K invested in their entire car. 

CT525 is a great engine, but the price for the "Knoxville" package is double what you can buy a GM602 package for and higher than you could build your own Racesaver 305.  I'm hoping NOT to make it where everyone runs the exact same engine, at least with racesaver 305 you chose different cam & headers & injection.  Even the CT525 strip down version with needed pulley set is $10K.  North of us thee are 602 sprints getting started, but to my west in Texas there are Non-wing Racesaver 305 and just over the border are winged racesaver 305 as well.  I'm not a fan of the sealed engine deals as they be proven beatable and promoters and tech men get lazy.   Overall I like the UMSS setup the best and I have a friend on IOW that runs with them.  On a final note he tested the CT525 detuned for the UMSS series this season and he said it ran well, but they've decided not to allow it next year.  He did say he ran the CT525 fully tuned at the WAR series Jesse Hockett race and ran 2nd in his heat with it before loosing brakes in feature on night #1.

Anybody ever run a racesaver 305 with 4 barrell instead of injection?

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

I know we have talked but here are some of the options I think you have for your series if you want to limit the engine costs.

1. Current UMSS engine rule options with the 602 crate, UMSS SBC, or LS options.  602 would be your lowest HP option in this group. 390-420HP range

2. 604 crate with the 4 barrel, UMSS type SBC engine with 2 barrel and use a Victor Jr 2975 intake manifold. Both those options should be in the 420-450hp range.

3. 305 racesaver engine, UMSS SBC engine with a 4 barrel. Those should be in the same range (475hp?). You might be pushing the limits of that SBC engine at that point though cause it is basically a b mod motor.

4. All 604, all racesaver 305,  or all 602 engine package.

No matter what you do teching is going to be the key to keeping everybody on a relatively level playing field.

Looks like the 305 wingless group in Texas is changing to the WAR engine rules next year with a small spec left rear tire to keep the big motors from hooking up.

Thanks for the info/input and I agree tech is the key to keeping it fair.  Where do you get your Elite series(Texas) info, I can't find a website for them and I'm not on Facebook?  I thought WAR was, "Run Whatcha brung" or are you referring to their 305 New Mexico class?

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

The thing you need to control more than what motor you choose, RR tire and shocks. Put everybody on a 2 compound choice for RR and make them run that tire through out the show and stop teams from spending stupid ammounts of money on shocks. Then it doesn't really matter what engine you choose to run.

Thank you, more good points.  Not sure where I come down on the shocks.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

Concerning the Elite series, I read it on the internet somewhere so it has to be true and yes it will be open engine rule just like WAR but with the spec tire rule.

I wouldn't even let there be 2 RR tire compounds allowed. Run a spec RR and LR. Saves on tire costs and don't have to buy as many rims.

Shocks can be an issue but you could go with only single adjustable shocks but even then you can get up to the 3000.00 dollar range with those now.  RUSH series is using a cheap spec shock rule that would solve the problem of shock costs.

I've looked and searched everywhere I can think of and can't find mention of 2018 rule changes for Elite series.  I guess a lot of 305's will be for sale, unless they are just changing to the WAR/POWRi New Mexico 305 rules which are essentially the same as RACESAVER only you are allowed to use the ASCS head as well, which is identical to the RACESAVER head.  That would in effect not be a change in cost or performance, but allow the ASCS guys to run with them.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

It was a profile article on one of the guys that started the series and at the end of the article they said that they are going with the (open motor rule). Not the WAR deal in the southwest.  Dirt Collective did the story on Nathan Moore where he mentions the change. I tried to copy and paste it but it doesn't work.  Probably can find in on Dirt Collective's facebook page.

Thanks, I found it.  Hope it goes well, but not sure if that is the right direction.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

The Wisconsin Wingless used to all have to go to a common dyno (I believe in Illinois) and there was a horsepower cap. Not sure if things are still done that way. I will say this... its growing at a record pace and they put on a great show. Talking B-main type of car counts. The first year or two was fun to watch as hand me down cars and equipment started to get re-purposed and it truly was a bang for your buck series. I havent heard much in the way of cheating up motors, or any other contaversies like that.... however I will say, it doesnt look all that entry level anymore. We are on the winged side of things, so I wander over and check these out when at the same tracks, and there are a lot of brand new cars, some with carbon fiber seats (which should be up to the driver when it comes to safety items, but just shows that there is $$$ coming into that series) , shocks that rival the national level stuff, titanium everything, digital bleeders ect. Without room to spend money on motors, there will always be "that group" who will funnel that money somewhere else to get ahead. If you want to level the playing field and control costs, my ideal series would...

1. 604, selaed, with a 4 barrel. Spec header. No combo of various engines each with rules to try and make them all even or grandfathered in. GM604, sealed, with a 4 barrel, thats your choice.

2. No titanium - anywhere. I dont care if you are 200lbs over the class weight limit (1500lbs), no titanium. Take it out of the equation and avoid the drama.

3. Spec shock - as much as that pains me to say... spec shock such as single adjustable PRO, Afco and their accompanying part numbers. Open shock rule in a limited horsepower class is a recipe for disaster. They become all that more important and thats when you start seeing guys with shock packages that cost more than the engine in the car.

4. Tires - RR gets a 16" H20 or Medium, LR gets a 15" H15. Thats it, those are your choices.

5. No Carbon Fiber - anywhere. I dont care if you are 200lbs over the class weight limit (1500 lbs), no titanium. Take it out of the equation and avoid the drama.

6. Quickchanges - Find a entry level offering from each manufacturer. With the offerings out there nowdays in the 4k and up range, with ultra lite weight internals, that becomes a place for money to create a huge differance when it comes to limited horsepower. Once you limit horsepower, the next place the money goes is in the lightest rotating componants money can buy. Stay ahead of that right away.

I get that there is a place for limited sprint cars, but every additional rule someone makes costs money. People need to come to the understanding that sprint cars are sprint cars for a reason, the more you slow them down the more you are cheating the fans out of what they are coming to see. Every rule that is created to "level the playing field" costs someone money and at the end of the day the best drivers will still be the best regardless of what the rule package is. Guys are bitching about bleeders, new tires, adjustable shocks, titanium, carbon fiber, ect... the fact is these are all scapegoats for guys that are feeling cheated about not being able to keep up with the Jones's so to say. 

Can you go more indepth on the spec shocks vs. open shocks please? I am interested to see your thought on this area. 

Thanks,  

While I agree with certain points, the Wisconsin Wingless were born with the premise of being an affordable, limited type wingless division. It worked. They are limited, they definately are not slow and they most certainly have not cheated fans in the least... some great racing.

My feelings are anytime you have a cap on horsepower, and traction can overcome that horsepower, you start paying thousandths to pick up a tenth elsewhere. Titanium rotors, input shafts, driveshafts... what you were even with on horsepower, you now gain in driveline response and off the corner, at a steep price. You take that weight off those traditionally steel rotating assemblies at that RPM, you are talking significant gains performance wise on the clock. With the right driver.

I agree 100% that a good driver can and would still win without the titanium and carbon fiber items listed in my first post. But to me, just more than the on track gains that those things can provide at high cost, its the stigma. In the few short years I have heard comments in the beginning of "hey, we could take that old 410 in the shop and put one of these together" to "i have been looking to get back into racing, and it looks like for 15k, this would be a good option" to last year a few people saying "Those are starting to get out of hand" and "the roller I looked at wouldnt even compete with some of these cars I am looking at". Could it? probably. But theres that stigma now, that makes people think its no longer affordable.

Shocks are almost becoming more important than horsepower now days in a lot of divisions, especially on the dry slick or rubbered up tracks we see today. Now granted not anyone can bolt on a set of high dollar double adjustable shocks (heck it doesnt even have to be double adjustables, but a set of custom valved $300+ per shock, package from the top builders) and go straight to the front... but in the right hands I am sure everyone on here agrees that at the end of the night, a properly tuned adjustable shock package, or set of custom valved dry/slick shocks, will be faster than a set of non adjustable $139 twin tubes. So in my eyes, a driver sees all this new stuff on the guys running up front, and wether thats the reason you are not keeping up or not... what does the common racer think and do? I need this. And they dump $3,200 on a set of double adjustable Super Shox, it doesnt move them straight to the front, even though it may be a step in the right direction... and then they wreck and sit out for a month because their budget is tapped out. Sometimes these exotic things and materials, in a class that was BORN to be a budget way to go racing, has ramifications beyond what you just see on the track.

For what its worth, My ideal series,

Racesaver sealed engine, whether it be winged or non winged doesnt matter.

No adjustable shocks, No gas shocks, No external canister shocks.

No titanium, (everything subject to tech, Inspection hole on torque tube, inspection hole on Rear to check lower shaft)

Standard Ring and pinion (either 4.11, 4.57 or 4.86, no EDM or polishing options)

Racesaver RR and Racesaver LR tires, (they dont make a tire bigger than 94 to my knowledge, and they're cheaper)

1 RR tire per night unless track conditions warrant new tire for feature, up to decsion of officials.

No wieght jackers or other cockpit adjusters.

puts everyone on the same page.

Winged - wing angle and position rule. 20 degree max, plumb bob down from rear edge of wing, can be no further  back from rear axle than a set measurement. sideboards totally square, belly totally square, no rudders, (HRP makes a wing like this for about $550 total.)

Racesaver front wing rule. (no further forward than 6 inches from front tires.)

the real problem is when you get to smaller ring and pinion rears, how to enforce that, though they dont cost too much more than standard rears, maybe couple hundred dollars difference.

Just my opinion.

Well for my area there are NO sprints in Georgia, unless a traveling series comes thru.  I prefer non-wing because downforce just makes HP that much more usable.  I want to get people who've NEVER considered sprints to try them, instead of DEAD BORING GM602 late models that train race for 20 laps.  I realize 410 Sprints are the ultimate in excitement, but me trying to convince a bunch of guys running a GM602 late model to instead do a 410 Sprint is like me asking them to start a local space program, it ain't gonna happen.  I myself don't like crates at all, but Stan Lester made everybody believe crates were the best thing since sliced bread and that funny little seals and bolts would keep the "HAVES" from outspending the "HAVE NOTS", it doesn't.  If you have money to spend you'll finf some place to spend it and no rules will ever stop that.  Peoples perception is a lot of it.  I myself have NO issue with carbon fiber parts or even titanium as long as you make minimum weight, but like the man above said people get ideas in their heads about things and drama and crying ensue. 

Now rotating weight is different, but the rest I could care less about or even shocks.  I come from a shock bach ground, I worked for Carrera Racing Shocks from 98'-04' and so shocks don't scare me much, you either know how to use them or you don't, like wheel spacers, bar thickness or setting to the blocks, its just another adjustment.  Sadly, just like blue printing crate engines, there is a misconception that there is unlimited "magic" in shocks or blue printing and people freak out.  So I'm torn as to how to proceed, I don't live in fear because somebody with too much money paid too much for something, but I do wan't people to participate.  The racesaver 305 deal is the most appealing to me, followed by UMSS and the Wingless Spec Sprints in California.  Maybe even the CT525, I dunno.  One thing for sure they will have starters at minimum, maybe the transmission that RUSH in gonna use too.  I know the sprint purest will balk at that but they have decades of infrastructure already in place in Indy, PA, OH.  Our tracks down here are not setup for pushing off cars and it would be one more hurddle to leap.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—	
I took the one less traveled by,	
And that has made all the difference.

Im not understanding here, are you saying that you need to run the same shock on each corner of the car all night? 

Can you send me a link for a non-adjustable aluminum body twin tube sprint car shock for $139.00?