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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Topic: Schatz vs Gravel comparison Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 1   of  14 replies
SprintFan19
July 12, 2017 at 02:40:02 PM
Joined: 03/05/2012
Posts: 131
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Given their age differences and win totals, my rough estimate was that Gravel would have to average about 15 wins a year to equal where Schatz is at in his career right now.

Gravel seems to have found more success earlier than Schatz did given his current age, win totals, and time in the series.

I hope Gravel can keep up the heat, the sport needs a great rivalry again




vande77
July 12, 2017 at 03:11:12 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
Reply

no disrepect to the current WoO followers, but Schatz competed against Jac, Sammy, Steve, Danny Lasoski, Mark, Jason Meyers, Pittman, Saldana and others for a majority of those years early in his career (wins were harder to come by IMO). 

Lasoski, Mark, Meyers, Kinser, Pittman, and Swindell all won WoO titles during Schatz's 20 years on the tour as well and most followed the tour a majority of those years.

Steve, Danny, Jac, Sammy and Mark are all in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame.   Outside of Schatz name anyone running the WoO currently that is a "shoo-in" for that?  All those names were bantered around as "Shoo-ins" when the Hall of Fame was built in hte 1990;s.

Gravel is racing agains Schatz, Pittman, Sweet, Kraig Kinser, Sides, Shane Stewart, S. Haudenshield, Schugart and Allen.  Nothing against any of them, but they haven't proven they are anywhere close to those Schatz raced against when he was an up and comer.



blazer00
July 12, 2017 at 06:17:06 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: vande77 on July 12 2017 at 03:11:12 PM

no disrepect to the current WoO followers, but Schatz competed against Jac, Sammy, Steve, Danny Lasoski, Mark, Jason Meyers, Pittman, Saldana and others for a majority of those years early in his career (wins were harder to come by IMO). 

Lasoski, Mark, Meyers, Kinser, Pittman, and Swindell all won WoO titles during Schatz's 20 years on the tour as well and most followed the tour a majority of those years.

Steve, Danny, Jac, Sammy and Mark are all in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame.   Outside of Schatz name anyone running the WoO currently that is a "shoo-in" for that?  All those names were bantered around as "Shoo-ins" when the Hall of Fame was built in hte 1990;s.

Gravel is racing agains Schatz, Pittman, Sweet, Kraig Kinser, Sides, Shane Stewart, S. Haudenshield, Schugart and Allen.  Nothing against any of them, but they haven't proven they are anywhere close to those Schatz raced against when he was an up and comer.



In my opinion, you hit the nail squarly on the head! And I'd like to add, a driver's future success often comes from the competition faced during the formative years. Schatz was up against some of the most successful all time drivers early in his career. and in to his winning years. It wasn't a matter of competeing with just one or two that could win on any given night there were several. And none that you mention only have a few wins on tour. Plus, all the drivers you mentioned, were beating on each other at one time or another night after night.



the bobinski
July 12, 2017 at 06:38:31 PM
Joined: 07/06/2017
Posts: 32
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Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on July 12 2017 at 06:17:06 PM

In my opinion, you hit the nail squarly on the head! And I'd like to add, a driver's future success often comes from the competition faced during the formative years. Schatz was up against some of the most successful all time drivers early in his career. and in to his winning years. It wasn't a matter of competeing with just one or two that could win on any given night there were several. And none that you mention only have a few wins on tour. Plus, all the drivers you mentioned, were beating on each other at one time or another night after night.



Sorry but this is like the typical comparisons of different eras. Like was Foyt better than GaryB. or Steve better than Opperman etc etc. All you can do is compete against your competion of you times.



dsc1600
July 12, 2017 at 07:17:57 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2138
Reply

The late 90s when Schatz started out was probably the toughest era of the WoO, I'd agree with that. 

But I do think this year's version is as tough as it's been in several years and Gravel is a big reason for that. 

Schatz was almost immediately very competitive in the big races, almost won Knoxville in 2000, won the Natty Open that year. Gravel hasn't been close at Knoxville, but does have the Open win. The fact that he's in the same ball park this young is pretty incredible, i look forward to the future. 



blazer00
July 12, 2017 at 07:43:47 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
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Reply to:
Posted By: the bobinski on July 12 2017 at 06:38:31 PM

Sorry but this is like the typical comparisons of different eras. Like was Foyt better than GaryB. or Steve better than Opperman etc etc. All you can do is compete against your competion of you times.



I wasn't comparing any one driver against another. It was more about comparing the entire fields of cars that each has had to deal with on a regular basis. Comparing competion against the times is pretty effective if a driver's carreer is overlapped by more than one era of great competition. Schatz did fall in to that category. I know the pitfalls of trying to compare a single driver from one era to that of another. That's not so difficult in Schatz's case because so many successful drivers from a previous era overlapped into his career, and they remained successful. Gravel is facing Schatz and a few guys capable of winning a race now and then. The fact that Gravel can beat Schatz and it not be a surprize to anyone speaks volumes for what Gravel is doing.



GTigers55
July 12, 2017 at 08:17:18 PM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 277
Reply

The cars aren't the same, the drivers aren't the same. Can't compare eras. The drivers back then usually had the better cars/crews just as it is today. The main difference in my opinion is that the cars are much more equal now. Not exactly the same, but less variation certainly. I believe that has a lot to do with why nobody will ever be as dominant as Kinser was.



motorhead748
July 12, 2017 at 08:21:27 PM
Joined: 08/05/2010
Posts: 393
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Reply to:
Posted By: vande77 on July 12 2017 at 03:11:12 PM

no disrepect to the current WoO followers, but Schatz competed against Jac, Sammy, Steve, Danny Lasoski, Mark, Jason Meyers, Pittman, Saldana and others for a majority of those years early in his career (wins were harder to come by IMO). 

Lasoski, Mark, Meyers, Kinser, Pittman, and Swindell all won WoO titles during Schatz's 20 years on the tour as well and most followed the tour a majority of those years.

Steve, Danny, Jac, Sammy and Mark are all in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame.   Outside of Schatz name anyone running the WoO currently that is a "shoo-in" for that?  All those names were bantered around as "Shoo-ins" when the Hall of Fame was built in hte 1990;s.

Gravel is racing agains Schatz, Pittman, Sweet, Kraig Kinser, Sides, Shane Stewart, S. Haudenshield, Schugart and Allen.  Nothing against any of them, but they haven't proven they are anywhere close to those Schatz raced against when he was an up and comer.



^this



the bobinski
July 12, 2017 at 08:46:59 PM
Joined: 07/06/2017
Posts: 32
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Reply to:
Posted By: GTigers55 on July 12 2017 at 08:17:18 PM

The cars aren't the same, the drivers aren't the same. Can't compare eras. The drivers back then usually had the better cars/crews just as it is today. The main difference in my opinion is that the cars are much more equal now. Not exactly the same, but less variation certainly. I believe that has a lot to do with why nobody will ever be as dominant as Kinser was.



I think you are totally correct here



dirtdevil
July 13, 2017 at 12:00:44 AM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: GTigers55 on July 12 2017 at 08:17:18 PM

The cars aren't the same, the drivers aren't the same. Can't compare eras. The drivers back then usually had the better cars/crews just as it is today. The main difference in my opinion is that the cars are much more equal now. Not exactly the same, but less variation certainly. I believe that has a lot to do with why nobody will ever be as dominant as Kinser was.



exactly,

the competition and era is all the same, the talent and drivers vs the era is directly purportional, yes,  the hayday was the golden ages as the sport guained popularity, rivals were born, a few had huge advantages, technology, lighweight components, funding,  and seat time compaired to others, i strongly believ there is 20 good drivers that come to the nationals that are a good canidate to win every year , thats no different than 10 - 15 years ago, the names change but thats about it, the #1 reciepe to Schatz success is his time with the same,  crew,  chassis,sponsors,engine, ect  the team has evolved as a whole, the driver has great funding and talent, how many other drivers have been in the same seat and team as the 15?, SK,Doug,Sammy ect all were out and back into good rides over thier careers, its a huge advantage to capitalize on a method that produces, thier successfull, and have been, there is a few that can light things up from time to time and i strongly hope someone can get rolling really good soon, I personally like new winners, first timers, if it becomes completly predicable ill quit attending.. Complete dominance of a sport ruins it IMO, i was too young to pay much attention to sprint cars when SK was on a roll, but, it was the same song and dance, only the number on the wing was #11



blazer00
July 13, 2017 at 06:23:36 AM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
Reply

The thread has gotten off point. This is about how Schatz and Gravel compare te each other at the same ages in their careers. There are always going to be a dominant one or two drivers.....always. Any comparison needs to be done by looking at the entire body of  competition each faced in the early stages of their careers. Some of the threats to win today for Gravel, other than Schatz, were in their primes 10-15 or more years ago. Currently, Schatz and Gravel have over 50% of all WoO Feature wins this season, while so many are touting it tougher to win today than ever. Go outside the top five drivers/teams and name me one other that you would put your money on at even odds to win a WoO Feature. Outside the top five, the chances of you winning a consistant bet is very poor. Even an occasional win isn't much to bet on.



BigRightRear
July 13, 2017 at 08:33:34 AM
Joined: 11/27/2004
Posts: 3665
Reply

Comparing?

Ok...Gravel would have wrecked johnson last year at Kville...Schatz clearly should have too...


Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

vande77
July 13, 2017 at 08:48:47 AM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
Reply

I want to make sure I was clear.  it's not that there isn't competition today, it's just that today's competition hasn't PROVED on the track that they are as good as the previous generation of racers (they might, they might not, we won't know for quite some time).

15 years from now maybe we can do a better comparison, but today you have to use the information available.  

That information shows that Schatz had tougher competition.  15 years from now, it may show that Gravel also had that same level of competition, but currently it does not.

Gravel is racing against (2) WoO Champions in Schatz and Pittman.  Schatz ran against (5) WoO Champions in Mark, Steve, Danny, Daryn and Jason Meyers.

Gravel is racing against (2) Knoxville Nationals Champions in Schatz and Jason Johnson.  Schatz ran against (6) in Mark, Danny, Steve, Shaffer (ran WoO full-time during Donny's career), Sammy and Jason Johnson.

If in 17 years we are saying that Gravel ran against (5) WoO Champions and (6) Knoxville Nationals Champions and that he won (9) Knoxville Nationals and (6) WoO Championships than he will be on par with Donny.  Currently he isn't.  There isn't enough data to show he is.

At one time I remmeber the following drivers all being the "next big thing" in sprint car racing:  Tyler Walker, Lance Blevins, Blake Robertson and a few others.  Last I checked they are all still a long ways down on the all-time win list and have never won a WoO Championship.  Therefore, IMO, they are not on par with Schatz.



minthess
MyWebsite
July 13, 2017 at 10:15:44 AM
Joined: 12/09/2008
Posts: 2403
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dsc1600 on July 12 2017 at 07:17:57 PM

The late 90s when Schatz started out was probably the toughest era of the WoO, I'd agree with that. 

But I do think this year's version is as tough as it's been in several years and Gravel is a big reason for that. 

Schatz was almost immediately very competitive in the big races, almost won Knoxville in 2000, won the Natty Open that year. Gravel hasn't been close at Knoxville, but does have the Open win. The fact that he's in the same ball park this young is pretty incredible, i look forward to the future. 



Donny came at the peak.  Show's how good the mid to late 90s were.  It took him a few years to get competitive and look at him now.   Remember when Mark was 3 or 4 tenths quicker than second place in time trials many times.  Great times.  No ones stuff sounds as good as poed Karl's in 1996 to this day.  As fast as they were in warm ups at Hagerstown the other night and realize Mark's record is still a half second quicker is amazing.


Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

blazer00
July 13, 2017 at 01:47:57 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1383
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: minthess on July 13 2017 at 10:15:44 AM

Donny came at the peak.  Show's how good the mid to late 90s were.  It took him a few years to get competitive and look at him now.   Remember when Mark was 3 or 4 tenths quicker than second place in time trials many times.  Great times.  No ones stuff sounds as good as poed Karl's in 1996 to this day.  As fast as they were in warm ups at Hagerstown the other night and realize Mark's record is still a half second quicker is amazing.



There have been a few of those old track records fall in the past 5-7 years or so. Some stood as long as they did because of the weight rules. I'd guess Mark's car back in'96 was as much as 200 or so pounds lighter than today's car, but, was what, 175-200hp short of the engines today? I don't remember the actual weights and ratings back then, but probably not too far off. And I agree with you about the '90's.





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