Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I read from people on here, all sorts of not very nice things about any sprint car that does not have a 410 under the hood?  Why is that?  Are non-410 teams not worth respect because some places they are a few tenths slower, some parts of the country don't have them, they are cheaper, sound different, or what exactly is the reason some of you talk trash about everything but 410s?  Would a steel block 410 be ok to you?  How is it that a car could be worthy to some of you Friday night (for example), but change (only) the motor for Saturday and it is no longer a "real" sprint car?  Please elaborate on your thought process so I can understand it please. 

Adultlike responses only please.

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I hear what your saying. I help a lower buget 358 team by letting them use my shop,equipment and even give money at times. They work as hard as any 410 team and do it with a 10th of the money. The driver has just won his first 358 race at Lincoln. He has been getting better each time out and hopes to eventually move up to 410's. I hate it when people leave after the 410 A main. The 358 class at Lincoln has a great car count, very good drivers and put on a great show. Remember even Donny Shatz started out in a lower class then 410's.

Not looking down upon here. The fact of the matter is there is limited coverage as far as car counts go across the country much like there is a limitation with 410s in some areas where 360s are more common. 

In areas where both are common the 360s are deemed the minor leagues given their purse structure isn't plentiful as the 410s.  Its not because we hate 360s, we just realize that in many cases (certainly not always though) that the 410s are on average going to have the better drivers and teams.  I dont see much 360 racing, so sub 358s for me. I don't hate the 358s or the 305s either, and like watching them. But I also realize the cold hard facts of the matter. 

I hear you about the work and the money. That's the unfortunate part of it all. You damn near have to spend 410 money to go 360/358 racing but on get 1/2 to 1/3 the purse. Sucks that is the way it is. 

The 410 does seem to represent the "elite" I guess, and some people will just have their attitudes.   As far as the "few tenths" that you mention, at some tracks there isn't much difference.   Depending on track conditions and configuration there may be little or no difference in the stopwatch.    This is true of many 1/4 mile tracks and some that are larger.   Devils Bowl is just under a half mile and lightning fast when it's tacky.   The WoO fast times have been as low as 14.0 the last few years, but the ASCS 360s (who don't time trial) will run about that fast in their heat races.   Visibly I can't tell any difference in speed at all.   I'm sure someone will get on here and blast me for saying that, but the evidence speaks for itself.   Personally I'd rather see them take the wings off and see some good racing for a change and to hell with the stopwatch.  

On your typical night at Knoxville Raceway during Time Trials, a 360 is about a second off the speed of a 410 and a 305 is about a second off a 360. Now you have to give or take a half second on those times every once in a while, but either way that is fast for all three classes. The 305 track record was broken this year on May 7 by Christian Bowman and his lap time was 16.736 for an average lap speed of 107.552 miles per hour. In the mid-80's, that's the lap times that 410s were running at Knoxville. A sprint car is a sprint car, they're all fast and they're all fun to watch. Those of us who are lucky enough to see multiple classes of sprint cars on a weekly basis should really appreciate it because many others don't have that luxury.

Ask Frank

Enjoy it Coltan, hope you never have to move down here.   On most Saturday night my choices are either Devils Bowl with their low car count 305 class (7 this past week) or Kennedale Speedway Park with 20 or more 305s.   Of course if I go to KSP I also have to endure five IMCA classes plus factory stocks and usually one other class with "mini" in front of it.  No thanks!    I would love to live within driving distance of Knoxville.

Very easy, what is the largest engine you can put in a Sprint Car wing or wingless(non-wing) a 410ci.

They are the top class at any track that runs Sprint Cars. WoO, All Stars, KWS, Knoxville, Siver Dollor Speedway (Fridays) Posse tracks, Wingless (USAC).

The second level down is ASCS 360ci Motors (national tour) then regional tour, then the 305ci, Limited head 360's, Crate Engine cars 355ci (604 motor).

To me and alot of people if you run a 410 and can win with a 410. You should not pull the 410 out and put a 360 in or go run a 360 in with lower classes of drivers, it's like cherry picking the win AKA easy money. It's much like that pavement sport - Cup, Grand National, Truck. Oh a Cup driver won over a Grand National or Truck driver oh wow, sad.

The mid-80's were 30 years ago, but good perspective nonetheless!  The chronology of 410 track records a little ways down this page is interesting, to say the least!  

http://www.knoxvilleraceway.com/History/knoxville-wing-track-records

When the 360s were first introduced in the mid-80's, the equipment wasn't that great, the talent wasn't that great, and consequently the racing wasn't that great... with a lot of crashes.  The 305 class now sort of reminds me of that.  

The 360 class evolved though with better equipment, better talent, and much better racing.  10-15 years ago, the 360 class pulled in 35-40 cars every week, and the best race of the night was regularly the 360 B-Main!  The 360 class today doesn't have near the numbers due to the rising costs... but on any given Saturday, the 360 racing can be just as good as the 410 racing, if not better.  

I've been as critical as anybody of the 305's at Knoxville... think they're much better suited for a smaller track (like Eagle).  I've also traveled outside of Marion County once or twice though... and know that to watch sprints just about anywhere else, you have to suffer through endless amounts of modifieds/hornets/shitboxes.  60-90 sprints in the infield at Knoxville every week and nothing else is pretty cool.  The 305's will probably evolve just like the 360's have... for better or for worse.  

To think that 410's are the only good form of sprint car racing is a bit farsighted and naive, IMO... but I've grown up watching racing around Knoxville... not PA... Ohio... or other parts unknown... so understand that opinions may vary!

you are correct,  those that do not like 305 and 360 are either whiners or wieners. Get over it there are more sprint car classes than 410s.  

Took the words right out of my mouth! I remember when 16.4 was a quick time at the Nationals.....my how things have changed. Were we excited about sprint cars back in the '80's?....damn straight! There have been many competitive and exciting 305 and 360 Heats and Features at Knoxville on a regular basis, and for that matter I've seen many very good races with those classes elsewhere. The 360 Nationals is quite an event in itself. The RaceSaver 305's are also beginning to put on some good shows as the quantity of cars grow. To me, a sprint car is a sprint car. Stand down by the fence when a 305 goes by and tell me they aren't moving right along!

I suspect that the "fans" that are closed to anything other than a 410, winged sprint car race, are also closed to imported beer, african-american presidents, and global warming. Yes, I went there....

Call me wierd but I love all 3 classes but then again I just plain love Sprint Cars. When I go to Knoxville I look forward to every single race of the night. I'm by no means a newbie to sprint cars as I remember when the 360s were getting started they had the small cheesy top wings, shitty paint jobs (yes PAINT) no decal wraps and most were on open trailers but I still loved watching them.

Seems every time they start a new limited division they just keep pushing the envelope until it is no longer economical for race teams to afford to keep racing.

I don't really know what changes they have made since the birth of the 305 division but I can see a significant change in the performance of the 305s now than when they first started.

What next after the 305's get to expensive! 255 cu.in.????

Like I said though, either way if its a Sprint Car it has my attention. 

I am not sure where 410 racing is headed ? due to its cost factor , but I can say the best racing I've seen has been 360 wing at Selinsgrove and 410 non-wing in USAC .But I have seen a few good 410 races at  Pa tracks as well .

I don't even see why we're having this discussion.   As soon as the oceans rise the only racing will be in boats anyway. 

Head for the hills! Maybe we'll see sprint cars back at Pikes Peak.

LOL.... Could be.. Hope they're not 305s, they may not have enough power to pull themselves up the hill!

Nothing at all wrong with a good 360 or 358 sprint race if you ask me. The 410 may be a tick faster and have most of the big names, but the 360's have some great drivers and put on a good show as well. I enjoy super late models too though, so what do I know?

A

I watched some of the all time legends of the sport as a kid in those cageless cars with the hoop behind the driver's head and injector stacks sticking out of the hood.  Hell, I even seen a few Offy and Ranger aircraft engine holdouts those first couple of years.  They couldn't keep up with today's 305s.  Good thing we didn't give up on them or the sport wouldnt exist today.  

Stan Meissner

What if 410's never existed, What if 360s is and always has been the top tier racing division!!! Would the Knoxville 360 & 305 Nationals still be popular? Would there still be a Pennsylvania Posse or would the World of Outlaws have survived if the 360 cu.in. were as far as the engines ever advanced?  My guess is nothing would be any different than it is now.