Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Brad Doty brought up a good point on Wing Nation this week that there seem to be an abundance of Posse crew chiefs calling the "Schatz" behind the scenes on the Outlaw trail... Ricky Warner, Barry Jackson, Randy Wolfe, Lee Stauffer, Bobby Allen. Plus Steve Suchy helped build the Shane Stewart deal and Justin Adams works for KKR.

Plus he said they need to have a wing angle rule to unhook the cars and cure dirty air.

And they need to run a narrower LR tire. Plus go to a harder compound on both sides.

Well said Brad Doty

http://www.mrn.com/Media-Center/MRN-Show-Archives/Winged-Nation.aspx

Do the left rears really need to be any bigger than this or the wings stood up more?

No, it is just a waste of money and the racing is worse.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Honestly, I don't think tires or wing angles is any of the answer here.  You do something to take away some downforce, you now make the downforce that is available that much more precious and you're right back into a situation that could be just as bad if not worse as far as aero tight/loose is concerned.

If a tire looses grip as it wears regardless of it's compound the usage of tires will not decrease.  If the grip of a tire remains consistant throughout it's life then maybe you're onto something, but if it looses grip as it wears then we're right back to where we were.   

Brad did say something interesting about motors though which I pondered for a few moments.  Tracks like Williams Grove, Eldora, and Knoxville are so dependant on big power motors due to the how the competitors are making downforce with these current wings.  Without a dish they just stand the wings up and with the wickerbill create a high pressure area on top of the wing thus creating downforce.  Subsequently this also creates a huge amount of drag.  Maybe going back to a dished wing that makes the same downforce as the current flattops with the wickerbills, but does so with less drag making HP not as important propelling a car down the straightaway?  HP still is a major factor through and maybe this would do nothing. 

Long story short, the toothpaste is out of the tube, we might as well accept that and enjoy the racing. 

To be perfectly honest I think track prep has the biggest influence in the quality of the races.  Shit track prep = shit race.   

Word from a lot of drivers is, unhooking the cars will make the racing worse. The better the tires the better the racing!! I think they need to work on racetracks and facility's instead of the race cars. It has been the best year for cars winning that started deep in the pack 

Every driver I know says the racing usually sucks until the track slows down. There has been alot of people coming from deep in the pack on the narrow right rear tire once the track slows down a couple of seconds. Track slowing down a couple of seconds is the same thing as unhooking the cars. Unhooking the cars was and is the key for both better racing and cost containment. It is time to take some of the drive out of the left rear tire and lower the wings to kill drag. To reduce engine expense and facilitate better racing when the track is wet or rough.

Dewease thinks the problem is easily solved. "The late models went through this years ago," Dewease said. "They had a big right rear and had all these wedges to put in the car, and it was too easy to go fast. We have the same problem. They went to a narrow tire and unhooked the cars and now, they have to race."

"That's what we need to do. The tires have gotten so good, that we need to go to a smaller tire." - Lance Dewease

"I didn't see a big problem when we had to put on the 16" (wide right rear tire) for the ASCS show. I think 16" is a move in the right direction, but it plain and simply is not enough. The tire companies will probably freak out on this, but I believe we need to cut the left rear width back to around 12" to help take some of the drive out of the car. Less tire, less power needed." - Jeff Swindell

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Dave Argabright "Christmas Tree" Story

(Excerpt from a Dave Argabright anonymous interview, The Ever Changing Face Of Sprint-Car Racing, in National Speed Sport News.)

We stood on top of the hauler, gazing down at the scene. It was the usual busy routine - cars being pushed towards the staging lane, mechanics making last minute adjustments with a crowd of onlookers filtering through the lines like ants.

"The sport is changing," he said, to nobody in particular.

He has been a part of all this for a long time, and he has seen a lot. He doesn't drive anymore, but he's still heavily involved in the sport. What he says is still important.

"I don't know where all the money is coming from," he said, looking across the way at all the big trailers. All the cars looked nice, with sharp paint jobs and shiny wheels. Bright lights from each of the trailers spilled onto the ramp and the surrounding area, combining to make the pit area very bright.

I told him that I've wondered that for a long time, about where the money is coming from.

"It seems like it's way beyond the average guy today," he said. "It's serious, serious money. I'm not sure it's good, seeing people spend this kind of money. I mean, God, you go through a couple of motors in a year, and what's that, $40,000?

"Racing has always been filled with the working man. But how does a working man find money like that?"

I really don't know I told him.

And then he laughed. "You know, when I raced, I'd spend my last dollar if that's what it took to keep the car going. One time, we were so broke we couldn't afford a Christmas tree. So my wife hocked some old jewelry she didn't wear anymore, and we used that to buy a tree. We didn't have any presents, but at least we had a tree."

"But we always had money to go to the races. I could always keep my car going. Then we had kids, and I swore it wouldn't be like that anymore."

Are you sad that you quit and all?

"Nah, not really. I'm still involved, so that helps," he said. "But for me to put up the money to keep a car going today, man, I'd have to think really hard about that."

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

Interesting thoughts about the wings.  I certainly don't have the answers...

I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly though.

Yeah.....cuz Doty doesn't know what he's talking about. Talk about some simple rules to police.

The drivers are saying they need more downforce, that they can't turn behind someone. Are you not listening???  Jeff Swindell hasn't raced a 410 in 15 years. 

Get rid of the wing.  Problem solved.

+1

My question would be, how does adding downforce help when your behind another car? Seems that all the downforce in the world means nothing when your behind another car as there is no air there to create the downforce.

If wing angles are measured post race at the scales with an inclinometer...will teams have to stop using bleeders at the risk the car will settle at an illegal post race reading?

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

Not if they error on the side of caution and figure their max angle with flat tires beforehand.  Pretty simple to do.

as a fan, I marvel that small tracks have the type of racing people like...yet we agonize to jigger rules to improve racing on tracks that are clearly a bore to watch ANY division running under ANY rules package.

for instance...move turns 1-2 of the Grove to start at the end of the main grandstand and redistubute lay to widen the racing surface and increase banking...pits outside 1-2 behimd a catch fence.

not only would fans see Lernerville style action...they would actually see the race cars on the front and back stretch from rows lower than the reserved seating section.

not that it matters to my sight lines because we cough up the cash for those premium seats...but at some point a BIG TRACK has gotta be concerned about BIGGER CROWDS supporting SMALLER TRACKS as a preference.

when was the last time Lincoln Speedway looked half full? The nights they didn't run 410s is your answer.

that right there is e correct wing angle for good racing...IMO

Lincoln 1845 ft/.35 mile T1=118MPH 
Eldora 2287 ft/.43mile T3=135MPH
Port 2716 ft/.51 mile T3=TBD
Grove 2792 ft/.53 mile T3=135MPH
Selinsgrove 2847 ft/.54 mile T1=136MPH
"I didn't move to PA from El Paso in search of better 
weather." Van May

And drivers are their own worst enemy,especially the ones with the big bucks behind them when it comes to rules suggestions.

Agree totally about WG!  Cut down those straights. Make it wider and higher-banked and you will see more cars, more fans and better racing. Lincoln could stand to be a bit wider also. The racing at Port has actually been pretty decent this year for a 1/2 mile track. They seem to have good grip on track prep so that it's slick but still has a top groove. If the top is gone, they re-work it before the feature and that formula works for them.

A

As I have said for years it's the side boards that are the problem and the flat wings made it worse. Why do we have 5 foot (60 inches) by 5 foot (60 inches) center foil section and 72 inch side boards. Cut a foot off make then 60 inches. Remove wicker bill. This will get rid of the left side of the wing air packing.

WoO rule 15.8 wings

15.8.1 Top Wing Center Foil A.) Center Foil maximum size of 25 square feet with a maximum width and length of 60 inches. Center Foil must be square or rectangular in shape with all 4 corners set at 90° angles with no variance allowed. Center foil top is to be flat from front to back and side to side. The center foil top must start being flat within 6” from the center foil’s front leading edge.

15.8.3 Side Board Panels TOP A.) The Top wing side board’s maximum size will be 72 inches long and 30 inches tall. The top 2/3’s of each top wing side panel shall consist of only 2 corners. Each corner shall be set at a 90° angle with no variance. This portion of the side panel’s leading edge may not be behind the center foils leading edge.

When the wings first started they were for forward bite not rudder effect.

Looking at the two pictures in this thread what do you see is the bigest differnce in the cars. Hint look at the left side rails. And back of the wing.

Nice point BRR. I don't understand why Scott Gobrecht just doesn't run 410s on Fri nights at Susky myself.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com

If they figure the angle with flat tires the angle will increase when there is more air.

Running bleeders and coming in with less air in the rear would lower the wing angle.

The reason the sings are run at such an angle now is they don't work worth a shit any more because the down force has been taken out of them. Years ago when doty was running you didn't need all that wing angle because the wings were wings, not flat pieces of plywood with no down force.

to indy and beyond!!

Measuring wing angle on a sprint car is simple. Other racing series have a lot of aero rules: bodies, spoilers, wings, winglets, underwings, diffusers, etc. Sprint car wing angle is easily and quickly measured with a digital level when it crosses the scales. Lowering it would save thousands of dollars a year in engine expense.

 
 
 
They don't even know how to spell sprint car 
much less chromoly...http://www.ycmco.com