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Topic: 360 VS 410 article
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July 13, 2011 at
10:13:00 AM
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check out Eric Arnolds flat out article on the real cost differences 360 compared to 410s. what an eye opener!!!!!!
"When you're born, you get a ticket to the freak show.
When you're born in America, you get a front-row
seat." George Carlin
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July 13, 2011 at
01:56:04 PM
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If running 410's is such a great deal there would be more tracks running them.
He also compared running the Outlaws schedule and the ASCS schedule. The ASCS boys can run whenever and whereever they want.
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July 13, 2011 at
02:56:59 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: donimus on July 13 2011 at 01:56:04 PM
If running 410's is such a great deal there would be more tracks running them.
He also compared running the Outlaws schedule and the ASCS schedule. The ASCS boys can run whenever and whereever they want.
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The flip side of that argument is that if 360s are so popular, where are all the $150,000 to win or even $50,000 to win 360 races? Why is it that the 410 Nationals at Knoxville pay 15 times what the 360 Nationals pay?
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July 13, 2011 at
03:22:10 PM
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How many 410 races in TX, NM, OK, or NE. There is only 1 410 car in NE(Brahmer), but all kinds of 360's.
The article does not also tell how hard the 410's are on parts and the upkeep is twice as much as 360's.
I love the argument, but 410's are dieing a slow death and it sucks.
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July 13, 2011 at
04:08:08 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: donimus on July 13 2011 at 03:22:10 PM
How many 410 races in TX, NM, OK, or NE. There is only 1 410 car in NE(Brahmer), but all kinds of 360's.
The article does not also tell how hard the 410's are on parts and the upkeep is twice as much as 360's.
I love the argument, but 410's are dieing a slow death and it sucks.
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I dont believe there are any 410 races in Az either, only 360 weekly/regional shows.
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July 13, 2011 at
04:53:04 PM
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I think Mr Arnold should rethink his position.
We also must remember that the Outlaw drivers can not race anywhere else and the ASCS drivers are free to run wherever they desire. Most of the ASCS National drivers run 3 to 4 times a week. The Outlaws schedule is down to about 65 shows and they drive past good paying unsanctioned shows to sit and wait for their Outlaw dates. Or they schedule on top of other unsanctioned show in the area cutting crowds and car counts.
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July 13, 2011 at
05:41:27 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: donimus on July 13 2011 at 04:53:04 PM
I think Mr Arnold should rethink his position.
We also must remember that the Outlaw drivers can not race anywhere else and the ASCS drivers are free to run wherever they desire. Most of the ASCS National drivers run 3 to 4 times a week. The Outlaws schedule is down to about 65 shows and they drive past good paying unsanctioned shows to sit and wait for their Outlaw dates. Or they schedule on top of other unsanctioned show in the area cutting crowds and car counts.
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While the ASCS guys are free to race where ever they want I don't think many of them are racing 3-4 nights each week. There just aren't that many good paying races in close proximity each week for them to do so. If you look at Jason, Shane, and Tim Crawley's websites you'll see that since the beginning of Feb they've each raced in the neighborhood of 30 times, not counting Jason's time down under. That's less than twice a week and most of those are at $3000 or less to win shows. The WoO raced 28 times in the same time frame and for $10k to win or more every night.
If you look at past years you'll see that those 3 guys race in the neighborhood of 60-70 times a year. That's right in line with the WoO schedule. Few guys run more than 75 times a year anymore. There's just not that many good paying races that they can get to. The days of showing up at every little race are over. It's just not financially doable.
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July 13, 2011 at
07:32:20 PM
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This message was edited on
July 13, 2011 at
07:36:17 PM by BIGFISH
Reply to:
Posted By: Dhowe11164 on July 13 2011 at 04:08:08 PM
I dont believe there are any 410 races in Az either, only 360 weekly/regional shows.
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That's true, although we have a two day USAC show in October that we're all looking forward to... Manzy and Ascot, and then later with Perris, AZ had been hooked at the hip for generations as far as non wing 410's and open comp go's; but with the decline of the 410's in Cali with USAC/CRA and the cost of travel, that along with the "coming" of ASCS in AZ, we haven't seen a real 410 race in AZ since the first Copper on dirt show they had at USA in Tucson when all 3 USAC divisions ran there a year and a half ago... One thing that we have been able to keep though is our non wing tradition here in AZ. We have the only non wing regional ASCS series in the nation, and damn proud of it! Trust me, we have our fingers crossed that this two day show that's coming up in October is the beginning of the return of the non wing 410's here in AZ on a more regular basis.
Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.
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July 13, 2011 at
08:04:24 PM
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I do agree with you guys that 410 racing is dying. There just arent a whole lot of weekly tracks that them. St.Francois Co. Raceway here in Missouri is about the closest track to me. The only other one that I know of in the immediate area is Jacksonville, Illinois. There are handful of tracks in central missouri that run 360's on a fulltime basis. The cost to maintain a 410 and have one that is competitive is just ridiculous. Ive heard from people that run a 410 sprint car engine even to be halfway competitive its going to run you at least $50,000...and thats not even a real good money like say a World of Outlaw driver has. If Emmett Hahn would put some more money in the points championship and schedule more national races, I honestly think you would see 410 racing just fade away. Tracks would start racing 360 sprints and 410's would die out completely.
Proudly supports:
Logan Seavey, Brent Marks and "Big Sexy" Brandon Overton
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July 13, 2011 at
08:09:52 PM
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I think what's happened is the cost of 360's has increased to where it's getting closer to 410's. Perhaps the growth of 360's will slow and the pendulum will swing back to 410's. I think we're at that teetering point. Just a thought.
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July 13, 2011 at
08:53:31 PM
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This message was edited on
July 13, 2011 at
08:57:57 PM by BIGFISH
Tracks would start racing 360 sprints and 410's would die out completely.
If that happens a new group with be formed running some kind of high horse power engines, and people would flock to it... The thought of only 360 engines in sprint cars go's against what a sprint car has been my whole life. Before the 410 rule was put into effect we ran a open comp at Ascot and in most of the southwest, and they were part of the "hot rod" culture of my generation. We need sprint cars to be hot rods again, and we defiantly need a elite group to run against at the regional level. In my opinion the lacking in both of those areas has been one of the reasons our fan base is flat. Sprint cars need to be bad ass, and live up to their history as such.
If I won the lottery you'd see on bad ass open comp series paying out big bucks on big track's, and of course they would be real sprint cars without wings. LOL Sponsor some kid? Heck no, I'd bring back some real let er rip racing for as long as the $$ lasted.
Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.
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July 13, 2011 at
09:58:05 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: BIGFISH on July 13 2011 at 08:53:31 PM
Tracks would start racing 360 sprints and 410's would die out completely.
If that happens a new group with be formed running some kind of high horse power engines, and people would flock to it... The thought of only 360 engines in sprint cars go's against what a sprint car has been my whole life. Before the 410 rule was put into effect we ran a open comp at Ascot and in most of the southwest, and they were part of the "hot rod" culture of my generation. We need sprint cars to be hot rods again, and we defiantly need a elite group to run against at the regional level. In my opinion the lacking in both of those areas has been one of the reasons our fan base is flat. Sprint cars need to be bad ass, and live up to their history as such.
If I won the lottery you'd see on bad ass open comp series paying out big bucks on big track's, and of course they would be real sprint cars without wings. LOL Sponsor some kid? Heck no, I'd bring back some real let er rip racing for as long as the $$ lasted.
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Mr. Fish, I like your style.
KS
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July 13, 2011 at
09:58:33 PM
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I hope I win the lottery, but if I cannot win, then I hope BIGFISH wins!
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July 13, 2011 at
10:20:15 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: singlefile on July 13 2011 at 02:56:59 PM
The flip side of that argument is that if 360s are so popular, where are all the $150,000 to win or even $50,000 to win 360 races? Why is it that the 410 Nationals at Knoxville pay 15 times what the 360 Nationals pay?
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Because there's 10 times as many people in the stands.
If there wasn't 410's on the infield for the Sat night of the 360 Nats there would be 20 times as many people at the 410 Nats.
If there was no 410 Nats the crowd would be at the 360 Nats.
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July 13, 2011 at
10:47:56 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: dirtracefan21 on July 13 2011 at 08:04:24 PM
I do agree with you guys that 410 racing is dying. There just arent a whole lot of weekly tracks that them. St.Francois Co. Raceway here in Missouri is about the closest track to me. The only other one that I know of in the immediate area is Jacksonville, Illinois. There are handful of tracks in central missouri that run 360's on a fulltime basis. The cost to maintain a 410 and have one that is competitive is just ridiculous. Ive heard from people that run a 410 sprint car engine even to be halfway competitive its going to run you at least $50,000...and thats not even a real good money like say a World of Outlaw driver has. If Emmett Hahn would put some more money in the points championship and schedule more national races, I honestly think you would see 410 racing just fade away. Tracks would start racing 360 sprints and 410's would die out completely.
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You Mentioned Farmington.I can tell you for sure there is no one that has even close to 50,000 in their engine.The track champion had a motor for sale for 15,000 if my memory is correct.He said if he didn't sell it,he would put it back in and win races.All of the guys run their motors for years.They usually freshen their motor between 25 and 35 races.There is not a new motor running Farmington and i'm not aware of one for years.
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July 14, 2011 at
12:40:07 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: BIGFISH on July 13 2011 at 08:53:31 PM
Tracks would start racing 360 sprints and 410's would die out completely.
If that happens a new group with be formed running some kind of high horse power engines, and people would flock to it... The thought of only 360 engines in sprint cars go's against what a sprint car has been my whole life. Before the 410 rule was put into effect we ran a open comp at Ascot and in most of the southwest, and they were part of the "hot rod" culture of my generation. We need sprint cars to be hot rods again, and we defiantly need a elite group to run against at the regional level. In my opinion the lacking in both of those areas has been one of the reasons our fan base is flat. Sprint cars need to be bad ass, and live up to their history as such.
If I won the lottery you'd see on bad ass open comp series paying out big bucks on big track's, and of course they would be real sprint cars without wings. LOL Sponsor some kid? Heck no, I'd bring back some real let er rip racing for as long as the $$ lasted.
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If a group like WOO ran 60-70 nonwing races how many funerals would you go to each year
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July 14, 2011 at
02:32:47 AM
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Reply to:
Posted By: linbob on July 14 2011 at 12:40:07 AM
If a group like WOO ran 60-70 nonwing races how many funerals would you go to each year
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USAC and CRA and a few others have never ran wings, and those boy's could stand up to the WOO any day!.... Oh, and no kids allowed in my series.
Half the lies they tell about me aren't true.
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July 14, 2011 at
09:40:00 AM
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Its a good attempt at an argument. But a few things stand out in the article... The nearest 410 racing is a good 15 hour drive for some teams. Also when comparing cost, the numbers were off. Most 360 teams are going at least 20 nights on a motor, if not they should be racing 410s. Most 410's don't go 15 nights... Also most 360 guys, including national champions are not using 3 RR tires a night. Some nights they dont put a new one on at all. The outlaws are using 1 RR and sometimes a couple new LRs in one night. And don't forget about other wear and tear. 360s get 25 nights on u-joints, drive lines, and more on the rear ends. With a 410 you have to changes the u-joint, driveline, and freshen the rear end every 5-10 nights. Do the math on that...
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July 14, 2011 at
01:02:06 PM
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Wow. Glad to see my article sparked some debate and people are reading it. I completely understand the flip side to some of this. It's good conversation.
Eric Arnold
Social Media Manager & Track Historian
Knoxville Raceway
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July 14, 2011 at
01:44:46 PM
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Reply to:
Posted By: kooks on July 13 2011 at 10:20:15 PM
Because there's 10 times as many people in the stands.
If there wasn't 410's on the infield for the Sat night of the 360 Nats there would be 20 times as many people at the 410 Nats.
If there was no 410 Nats the crowd would be at the 360 Nats.
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I agree with you first 2 statements but are you suggesting that they would have as big of crowd(from Cali, Penn, Texas, Florida, Australia) for a 360 Nationals if there were no 410 Nationals? You'd be fortunate to get half the crowd even if you had a better car count. People will not show up to Knoxville for a 360 only show, period.
I enjoy sprints of any kind but the cost of 360's is making them the dying breed IMO. 305's put on a great show and if they keep rules in check to keep costs down they will be the better support series soon with better car counts.
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