Forum: Oklahomatidbits.com General Forum (go)
Moderators:  /  David Smith Jr

Whatever happened to the 7th flag in the bag, "Blue w/ Yellow Stripe" that meant you are a lapped car..... Move over.

Whatever happened to the "Black Flag" that meant anything from rough driving to equipment failure.

We all know the rest of the the flags: Green, Yellow, RED, White, and Checkered. I was raised to believe that there were (7) Seven Flags to be thrown at any Race Track. Not (5) Five.

Guess that's what I get for being an old fart and growing up around USAC, NCRA, Mar-Car, and Indy Cars. Maybe it was NASCRAP that limited the flagman's choice instead of Lanny, and it just kinda trickled down. Kinda like .....OK, I aignt even going there.

Let's bring back the full gamete of Flags (7) and put the FLAGMAN back in control.

This "screaming" over the radio and the Pit Area P.A. system by the Promoter does not motivate anyone. And these calls made from the comfort of a Golf Cart should not be allowed. Period.

After all the FLAGMAN was hired to do a job, and he has a better perch atop the flag-stand as opposed to having your back turned to the Track while settled into the comfort of a Golf Buggie, or high atop the seat of an ATV located at near ground level.

Sorry to rant, but if the FLAGMAN were back in control, all of this "Bounty" business and rough driving would most likely cease.

Well Put I guess I should feel old because I seem to remember watching my uncle and other relative and friend race and seeing: Green, Yellow , Red, White, Checkered and OH YEAH THE BLACK FLAG AND THE BLUE WITH YELLOW STRIPE and it was not until I moved to OKC that I ever saw the flagman have to wait for orders on what to do... NC the flagman is the decision maker, Colorado The same decision maker, Wyoming, NM and Michigan all the decision makers for flagging is flagmans duty I even called a flagman I know in Colorado and he said He** no I would not be a puppet like that

I can play this game....

Blue/Yellow Flag...move over... NOT!!! That's the first problem, drivers need to go back to flagging school.. oh yeah, there isn't one!!

Blue/Yellow Flag... HOLD YOUR LINE!!

This is short track racing,,, you comin up on a slow car, go around them, don't need a flag for that!

Lanny will be the first to tell you why that flag isn't used... as you and I both posted two different meanings to the flag, that's where the problem is... one moves over, right in front of the guy who is about to pass.. BAM, crash,, bad idea.. too many people in dirt track racing have been hurt due to the fact nobody really knows what it means.

Look at 5 different track websites and read what blue/yellow flag means, you'll get 5 different definitions... a track in texas uses it to send cars off or some crap. Another track litterally has both,, "move over or hold your line"... gotta remember, we ain't Harvard scholars in this sport. This flagman buys a set of flags a year... I have yet to be able to get my supplier to give me a discount for leaving that flag out.... so, they go to the trash!!

Thank you A for bringing this subject up..... After standing on many different flag stands for over 20 years.I would like to give my opinion on this subject..

1) As a flagman you are not going to please everybody.

2) You can not and should not listen to anybody unless you have good corner workers you can trust. do not listen to other track officials including track owners/promoter's, their view is completely different than you can see it from the flag stand, and most of the time there input causes more problems in the long run anyway.

3) If people won't shut and let you do your job the way you are hired to do, turn your radio down and say it's broke that always worked for me. then turn it up when you need to.

4) Black flags.. this is a touchy subject as we all know. Rubin is racin as we all know damn it's a dirt track. But as you stand on the flag stand long enough it's not really hard tell keep an eye on the front bumper and their front tires that will tell you alot if the accident was a racing deal or just stupidity. A flagman has to make Quick spilt second decisions almost like a driver in the cockpit and once you make your decision it should be FINAL bottom line not matter who you are!!! and the promoter should back you up no matter what. If he don't really agree then you talk about it after the races not over the radio.... Again all decisions should be FINAL.

5) Blue and yellow flag... And yes the technical name is the move over flag, But IFthis flag is used and how it is used needs to be agreed in the drivers meeting so every driver should know what to do. do not move over because the leader needs to know the common line to pass a lap car.Example if you tell drivers in their meeting if you receive this flag hold your line you are being passed by the leader. But to use this flag for any other position other than your top five cars can get real confusing to a lap car.

Bottom line is the flagman should be in control during a race that is on the track because he has alot of peoples life's in his hands no matter how you look at it. Yes he is going to make mistakes so will anybody that works or participates at any of your local race tracks. It is all about how you recover from your mistakes and learn from them and then move on....

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

I go to races all over the place -- nobody is using the blue/yellow any more so you can't lay this on Lanny or any specific track. I heard a comment recently that they're not using it at Knoxville either -- if they're not using it there, it's not being used any where -- Doug Clark is probably the best flagman in the biz.

With respect to sprint cars, until they unscrew those cars a little bit, I don't think the blue/yellow should be in the bag. For most feature races, it is the lapped traffic that decides the outcome. If we remove lapped cars from the mix, we're going to have a lot of freight-training.

"I'd pay $15 to watch a sprint car sit still."

Agreed...... But I don't think anyone is saying to remove the lap cars because they have a rite to be on the track also. If you ever bought a set of flags you would know it comes with the set. There are many opioions on this flag and how it should be used and I respect yours, alot of times a lap car does decide the outcome of a race but it is all about respect for your other competitor because you might be racing for the win and a lap car gets in your way and takes you out not knowing you are the leader, that in my opioion screws up a good finish because the lap car does not know it is the leaders and not the next position he has been racing with.

This really is a subject that has no good answer because everybody has a different opioin on how and when it is to be used, so it should be left in the bag or hang it on the wall and throw darts at it untill everybody understands it, because it is a distraction to all involved. And this is not the first time I have debated this subject and the outcome is the same nobody will win this argument.

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

I agree, no need for the blue/yellow unflurled. However, it would be good to point it at a lapped car to have him keep his line and not be all over the race track as the faster cars are approaching. I don't like the move over flag because, as Mossman said, alot of times that decides races - lapped traffic.

The flagman calling the shots is not all good either. He can't watch one corner of the track while something maybe taking place on the other. There are those flagmen who showboat and think it is all about them. You need to trust your corner workers to help make a call but that is bad too because they will make the call and then talk about it to everybody for fifteen minutes. And that is no lie.

And no, I am not talking about SFS but all other tracks that I have been to from Nebrsaka to Kansas to Missouri and Oklahoma just this year.

It all goes down to respect on the drivers part and for about a fourth at OKC, that is nonexsistant.

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

And remember there are people in the stands with scanners that hear everything.

JIMMY MINTER 'AKA'dirtrack234                  
Yesterday 
is history, 
tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is 
why they call it the present.

Showboat......... So that's what you call it, and yes I have seen those kind of so called flagman you call showboat's and they are a dime a dozen because they don't last very long anyway. If you missed my earlier post I said a flagman should not listen to any other official other than corner workers that he can TRUST!!!! And furter more if a flagman does not need to be in control why do you need him there hire a puppit. That's what's wrong Everybody (different officials) think they need to make a decision that's why things get so screwed up all the time, nobody has the ball's to make a good decision and stick with it.... A track mgr.,promoter, and track owner have other issues all the time to deal with rather than watch every race!!!!

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

I am guessing my perspective on this would be different if I was a driver or car owner. As simply a fan, and a corn dog-eater at that, I like the idea that the leaders have to maneuver through lapped traffic. But I can certainly see the other viewpoint on this one. Hey, I know, take off the wings! Then we can bring the blue/yellow back into play.

As for the flagman, I think he needs some help based on the fact that he's multi-tasking and located in a relatively low vantage point, but there do also appear to be times when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. It's a delicate balance and one that, unfortunately, seems to be impacted by politics and friendships.

"I'd pay $15 to watch a sprint car sit still."

Good point kmossman...As I am now simply a fan and corn dog eater also damn there good. It was hard having so many friends when I was a flagman, that raced and owned cars. But knowing where to draw the line between friends on the track while doing my job was the hardest thing to do. But treating everybody as an equal and putting friendship aside for one nite a week is how I earned alot of people's respect. Did I make some wrong calls while a flagman or an official oh hell yes but I learned from them because I had to fight my way to my truck before I could even go home sometimes. But the hardest part was monday morning facing my boss (a good friend) after I DQ'ED his son or his brother the past weekend. Thats why I get so upset along with other fans,drivers and car owners when favouritism and politics are shown at local race tracks not just at SFS.

Yes an extra set of eyes in the corner's that I could trust to make a good call was always great!

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

Yes showboat and they are still in the perch.

To go along with what I said about offiicials getting on the radio after saying "caution in turns whatever" they then have another official get on there and say "yeah it looked like so and so did so and so blah blah blah" and rattle on about it. That not good. Then there is the case where "I don't know I didn't see it" or some other lame excuse when it happened right in front of them.

Hey, what happened to the pro stock drama post/thread? It got quiet! (thank gosh)

David Smith Jr.
www.oklahomatidbits.com

Yes David some are blind in one eye and see out the other one depending on who it is. When some officials with a radio can not and will not shut up it will drive a person insane about nothing... Some tracks like a good puppit so they keep them up on the flag stand no mater what. I guess the pro stock drama took a NEEDED rest for now, the day has been drama free untill the other track drama started LOL!!! It will be like a domino effect untill years end......JMO.......

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

With the majority of Oval Dirt Tracks in Oklahoma using the inverted starting grid procedure, the Blue/Yellow flag would be worn out by mid season in most cases.

Blue/Yellow flag indicates to "Hold Your Line" in the majority of racing rulebooks I am familer with. This allows the quicker competitors to know that the racer ahead of them knows that faster traffiic is about to overtake them on the course. Not used much on tight short tracks due to the high track saturation with 20 vehicles. The Blue/Yellow flag is a courtesy flag just as the white flag, half way signal and 2 laps remaining. Only official flags are Green, Yellow, Red and Checkered.

Majority of racing organizations I am familier with and work with have a position called Race Control. This person is at the top of the food chain and has the ultimate decision over which flags are displayed on the course and at what times. Everyone assigned a radio has a title such as corner station 1 or corner station 4, or Starter, or Announcer, or Race Director, or Chief Tech, or Chief Corner Marshall. When using the radio for communication all must first state their title then say to Control. Such as Corner 1 to Control. Control replies, go ahead corner 1. Control, we have a vehicle spinning toward the infield, or stopped on the course etc. Control may state, corner one go waving yellow, or All corners go Waving Yellow, or All corners go Red. By using radio protocal, and allowing Race Control to have the final decision over the course, a level of organization is kept with the contest, and chaos is kept off the radio transmissions.

Most racing organizations allow the Starter to call a foul start and ask for a re-start, other than that, most other commands come from Race Control, the Race Referee, or the Race Director.

In most racing organizations/sanctions rules the promoter or track owner is not allowed

to hold a position at any level of a race official. They are only there to sell ticketes and get fans in the stands, and make sure everyone has an enjoyable time. The race promoter should focus their time on locating sponsor, advertisers, buying as time, recruting new fans, ensuring his facility is safe for the racefans, and not worring about who gets a Yellow/Blue Flag.

Race Ofiicials are volunteers or staff that have specific titles and job duties which typically are written in the organizations rulebook.

Not sure when or why the promoters started being race officials, but the majority of rulebooks for sanctioned racing clearly does not allow for such, and there are a long list of reasons for that ruling.

1. The Referee is the principal officer of a meet, acting as

2. The Referee’s duties are:

a. To determine if any changes in the course are

b. To request the official sanction from the promoter and

c. To determine if all other appropriate officials are

d. To direct the starter to black flag a racer for any safety

e. To provide for technical inspection of equipment used

f. To receive and decide all protests subject to appeal.

g. To decide on disqualifications, and disqualify

h. To make a full written report about the meet and

i. To set aside a properly enclosed location for engine

j. To determine that liability insurance requirements

k. Have the right to, or at the request of a participant,

WOW!!! We went from race cars on an oval track to motor bikes and four wheelers thats nice to know I guess.........

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

Agree with everything rhilbers wrote........everything !

I will add, that at some tracks, (Nameless), there needs to be a second asst. flagman or official spotter up on the stand; (at least one more ! ) This will allow for quick consult and better decisions. Too many late yellow calls and incidents going unseen and as such, not addressed for my taste.

Consult, verify, and issue call. I know its a new way, but with the rising incidents involving conflict of interest , lack of experience, and talent in some of the flag stands these days....well its needed..

see my post on the BMS pit fight for my view on this

MM.

Fight to win on the Track, not in the parking lot! I 
just love the " Ur # 1. wave " from fellow racers as 
we head home to our other lives !

Thanks Mike.... Glad you brought up the asst. flagman, it was the best set of eyes I could ever have to help me make a quick decision and watch some of the drivers that are driving over there heads so I could consentrate on the leaders. Even though alot of times I paid him 20 bucks out of my pay and he got in free and got to share the best seat in the house, but you know how some tight ass track owners are they think an asst. is not needed but will save that for another topic LOL.

 Randy       

       DIRT TRACKIN
"When it's wet slide it in"

Simply pointing out that professional organizations, some that have been in existance since 1904 such as the one I quoted, have job descriptions for each position in the Race Control and Race Official list of personnel. The rulebook has been modified each season since then by a Congress of representatives elected by the event Sponsors, Team Owners, and Licensed Competitors who hold current valid credentials. Due to the long term modification of the rules by people from all across the U.S., each rule, job description, senario, has a very good reason for being worded the way it is. Not saying these rules apply or should be used, just posting as an example of how others handle it.

That is one of the up-sides of a track and or event being sanctioned by a National group. Others will disagree and wish to have a benovelent dictator running the program, nothing wrong with that, but one may want to get the rules in writing prior to the season so everyone knows what page they are on when issues arise. Otherwise there is no argument, appeal or otherwise. One ends up with a "My way or the Highway type deal." Which is perfectly okay if all are in agreement with that system.

Typically participants involved in motorsports respect and expect to be treated professionally. One would expect a track to have Professional Licensed and certified Emergency Medical Technicans on site, and operating a fully stocked ALS or ILS Ambulance equipped with certified dated and tested equipment and non-expired medications and meds to treat trauma patients in a moments notice. Doubt if anyone would accept the Track Management buying an old ambulance with an expired license tag, and allowing the promoter to evauluate injured participants, administer medications or handing an un-qualified person an EMT T-Shirt to perform that duty for the event.

Even when sanctioned by a National Group, the owner or president/CEO of that Sanction seldom attends each and every event on the season's circuit. That would be physically imposible as most larger Sanctions hold multiple races on the same nights in several states across the U.S. Therefore, the rule that the promoter/owner/CEO cannot be a race official. Prett simple to understand when looking at the big picture. Not saying that a single local track owner or one that owns or manages several tracks that race on separate night's cannot be a race official, just that they should not be. JMO and most Race Sanction's Legal department's opinion.

Not saying one is better than the other, Outlaw or Sanctioned, just stating there are different formats and up and down sides to both.

Having Official's job descriptions listed in the local or sanctioned racing rulebooks for all to read and understand the authority of each individual involved in the production of the event may be a logical way to help educate those involved in the event thus creating a more organized atmosphere.

Majority of racing venues, other than some local ones that I am involved with, have a "Track Management Team" that handles the grounds, maintenance and other duties of the facility. They typically never produce any events of their own, they are the track owners and their staff. Tracks are leased or rented to professional racing organizations that produce events at those facilities. Such as Heartland Park in Topeka, Kansas. Track has an owner and track management personnel, the owner does not produce the NHRA Summer Nationals held there, NHRA does. Or MSR Houston, outside sanctions produce the majority of racing held there, MSR Houston has track management staff, they are not involved in the production or officiating of the events on those weekends.

Regardless of the types and orientation of the Sanctions, or where rules are shared from, the majority have job descriptions and rules of what the officials duties are and are not. Because these are written in the rulebook, there are less vague areas to deal with on race days. One cannot have enough pages regarding race event procedure in a rule book. After a few seasons, every senario should and eventually will be covered in most rulebooks, especially those that create a protest, or an appeal regarding the outcome of an officials call. If not, then one has chaos, which seems to exist at some events, thus this discussion.

Believe the thread is regarding a rule about a Blue/Yellow flag that is either not defined in the rulebook or no one has quoted or posted a link to said rulebook, or the action of the Official that displays the flag or which official(s) determines if said flag is displayed or not. Therefore, one may want to call a meeting with the rule makers prior to the following season and address this issue of the Blue/Yellow Flag usage. Helps if one knows who is involved in those decisions, and how to contact them. If written in the rulebook, there is less footwork to find the answers. JMO

AMP, you made some very good and valid points. But if I want to read a novel I usually go to OKCFan12.com