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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Topic: Jacobs Ladder Info Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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mongooseman
November 26, 2008 at 09:50:46 PM
Joined: 02/25/2008
Posts: 116
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What can everyone tell me about a Jacobs Ladder on a sprint car?




team wright-one
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November 26, 2008 at 10:51:21 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: mongooseman on November 26 2008 at 09:50:46 PM

What can everyone tell me about a Jacobs Ladder on a sprint car?



........it's bad luck if you walk underneath it?



Michael 98A
November 27, 2008 at 12:26:51 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 569
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The metal isosceles triangle looking thingy...

 

 




dirtdevil
November 27, 2008 at 10:03:06 AM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1387
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It keeps the rearend centered in the chassis through the suspentions range of movement, (basically provides the same function as a panhard bar), although not used for chassis ajustment (tayloring to a track condition)on a sprintcar ,

there is a panhard bar located at the front axle of the car which enabes the car to keep the axle correctly located in the chassis resembeling the J-ladders function, the front axle however does not need the axle to remain centerd through movement ( a minor "take up" or expansion will be drawn through the arc, radius, or range of movement, of any arm), the driveline remaining centerd in the car is the J- ladders main intent



DOO-DAH_69
December 02, 2008 at 08:32:34 PM
Joined: 12/09/2004
Posts: 7
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It can be used to adjust the car...if you are with it enough to think it through...lots of guys on JEI's and the new Eagle Flexi-Flyer are using it to unstick these naturally tight racecars...just my 2 cents


"There is no statute of limitations on being a 
jackass!!"

brian26
December 02, 2008 at 10:21:35 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
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A Jacobs Ladder lets you have the effect of a longer panhard bar. From there I guess you can place one that is smaller. Also they look like you can affect the way the car rolls through the turns-so to speak. JMO





dirtdevil
December 03, 2008 at 12:02:57 AM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1387
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Posted By: DOO-DAH_69 on December 02 2008 at 08:32:34 PM

It can be used to adjust the car...if you are with it enough to think it through...lots of guys on JEI's and the new Eagle Flexi-Flyer are using it to unstick these naturally tight racecars...just my 2 cents



really , guess I learn something everyday? , sounds to me thier adjusting for something that doesnt work?JMO , so how does your drivelind like this adjustment?, swivel spline possibly? Interesting though, let me know if it works?



Faster Pussycat
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December 03, 2008 at 09:39:11 AM
Joined: 05/30/2007
Posts: 813
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i thought it had something to do with Jacob's issues with his brother Esau???


"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

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team wright-one
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December 03, 2008 at 10:53:52 AM
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Posted By: dirtdevil on December 03 2008 at 12:02:57 AM

really , guess I learn something everyday? , sounds to me thier adjusting for something that doesnt work?JMO , so how does your drivelind like this adjustment?, swivel spline possibly? Interesting though, let me know if it works?



the length of the "key' on the ladder and the way the ladder is mounted in the car have an effect on handling while still keeping the rear end centered. also a jacobs ladder does somthing that a panard bar doesn't, it can transfer weight. when a chassis rolls to the right the straps on the ladder force the nose of the "key" down applying pressure to the right rear. the opposite is true when the car rolls to the left. have you ever seen a driver wing a car down so hard entering a corner that it actually lifts the RR off the ground? that is the ladder pulling up.




dirtdevil
December 03, 2008 at 05:47:20 PM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1387
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ok, so, excuse me all to hell, so lets refrase the question to what is the "main" function of a J ladder?your right im wrong, if some of you are so bright how come nobody bothered giving a "real" explenation of what the item does , if the item is so nessessary for chassis adjustment how come Ive never seen a top sprint team perform adjustments to it (after the car is square) during intermission or open red flags? , seems to me ,a stagger,offset,blocking,shock,or bar change is a much easier and practical option for a desired settup , the question was pretty generic coming from ( I believe) "a green" interested party, lets start simple, unless your car is off the typical routine,first contact your chassis builder and request what ladder and straps are typical, then, I would square the rear and it check for binds , then, leave it alone,

lets not confuse the J ladder with a panhard bar, definetly not the same,and I understand, I came from the "Shorty Bar" times, there is some pretty radical movement in a short radius, thus making a huge wieght transfer change and providing a direction of load , on most taxis out there today the short panhard, lower links and aggressive angles are common , I dont think you see a sprinter reacting quite like those other cars with doors ?, I guess maybe that is where im coming from ? , and if you dont agree, then youve got my back against a wall. anyway, no harm done, hope some of this helped from a not so bright insider ?



brian26
December 03, 2008 at 09:25:35 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
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I have learned once again to keep my dam fool mouth shut. I'm going to listen better now on this here subject.

My apologies for the confusion.




DOO-DAH_69
December 03, 2008 at 10:20:22 PM
Joined: 12/09/2004
Posts: 7
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The J ladder is free when in the center of its arc; however, it does bind at the other two ends of the spectrum to a certain degree. Length also does effect the handling just by changing the length of an arm...its simple physics. As for the flexi-flyer thing...next time look at the 41 of the cajun sensation and notice the clearance or lack thereof between the RR radius rod and the J ladder....raising it frees up the car by raising the roll center of the ladder and slowing transfer to the RR. By the same token, lowering the ladder would tighten up the car with the opposite effect. I picked this up from another mechanic who happens to work on a popular 410 car from Lincoln, NE. Dirtdevil...its not a commonly used adjustment...usually I would only use it on a car that is particularly tight on the right rear to get it back to a baseline from which I can adjust it appropriately for the dry slick tracks we tend to get up here. I also really wouldn't recommend it for newbies, just trying to share a little knowledge with people that would appreciate it and may be able to use it.


"There is no statute of limitations on being a 
jackass!!"


team wright-one
MyWebsite
December 03, 2008 at 10:32:12 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: dirtdevil on December 03 2008 at 05:47:20 PM

ok, so, excuse me all to hell, so lets refrase the question to what is the "main" function of a J ladder?your right im wrong, if some of you are so bright how come nobody bothered giving a "real" explenation of what the item does , if the item is so nessessary for chassis adjustment how come Ive never seen a top sprint team perform adjustments to it (after the car is square) during intermission or open red flags? , seems to me ,a stagger,offset,blocking,shock,or bar change is a much easier and practical option for a desired settup , the question was pretty generic coming from ( I believe) "a green" interested party, lets start simple, unless your car is off the typical routine,first contact your chassis builder and request what ladder and straps are typical, then, I would square the rear and it check for binds , then, leave it alone,

lets not confuse the J ladder with a panhard bar, definetly not the same,and I understand, I came from the "Shorty Bar" times, there is some pretty radical movement in a short radius, thus making a huge wieght transfer change and providing a direction of load , on most taxis out there today the short panhard, lower links and aggressive angles are common , I dont think you see a sprinter reacting quite like those other cars with doors ?, I guess maybe that is where im coming from ? , and if you dont agree, then youve got my back against a wall. anyway, no harm done, hope some of this helped from a not so bright insider ?



no one said that a ladder is the end all for chassis adjustment or that it is THE tool for it. we are just stating that it can have more functions than just keeping the rear end in the car straight. you may not use it for anything more but some teams do. you should watch meyers and ricky warner more often as they change ladders more than anyone i have seen to help the car keep up with conditions. why do you think maxim and other builders make four or more different size ladders for the same car? have you never seen two sets of mounting points on a car for the ladder? you can make one strap longer and one shorter if you want to make the car handle different. to just say it holds the rear end centered is fine, but it does not give the full extent of the use of the devise. as a matter of fact the ladder size and mounting points and strap lengths can make such a difference that most of us just don't mess with it because you can really mess yourself up if you are not careful. but make no mistake the knowledgeable guys tune with them. justin henderson's dad came up with an adjustable ladder that you don't have to change straps with to adjust. you just turn rod ends on it to make adjustments.



DOO-DAH_69
December 03, 2008 at 10:40:17 PM
Joined: 12/09/2004
Posts: 7
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Wright one, very true...I know Rod pretty well and I thought it was a cool idea when he showed it to me. Glad that there is at least one other knowledgeable person on here trying to spread the knowledge.


"There is no statute of limitations on being a 
jackass!!"

team wright-one
MyWebsite
December 03, 2008 at 10:45:50 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: DOO-DAH_69 on December 03 2008 at 10:20:22 PM

The J ladder is free when in the center of its arc; however, it does bind at the other two ends of the spectrum to a certain degree. Length also does effect the handling just by changing the length of an arm...its simple physics. As for the flexi-flyer thing...next time look at the 41 of the cajun sensation and notice the clearance or lack thereof between the RR radius rod and the J ladder....raising it frees up the car by raising the roll center of the ladder and slowing transfer to the RR. By the same token, lowering the ladder would tighten up the car with the opposite effect. I picked this up from another mechanic who happens to work on a popular 410 car from Lincoln, NE. Dirtdevil...its not a commonly used adjustment...usually I would only use it on a car that is particularly tight on the right rear to get it back to a baseline from which I can adjust it appropriately for the dry slick tracks we tend to get up here. I also really wouldn't recommend it for newbies, just trying to share a little knowledge with people that would appreciate it and may be able to use it.



as to your statement of mounting the nose of the ladder higher or lower. when we used to run the flat alum ladder keys with the ball end in it to attach it to the car we had a clevis that had three mounting holes in it that threaded into the bird cage. one hole in the center and one above and below. raising or lowering one hole really made a difference!! actually more adjustment than we needed most of the time! we all know that changing something changes somethin somewhere!we just don't always know wtf it will do!




team wright-one
MyWebsite
December 03, 2008 at 10:53:47 PM
Joined: 11/29/2005
Posts: 1773
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Posted By: DOO-DAH_69 on December 03 2008 at 10:40:17 PM

Wright one, very true...I know Rod pretty well and I thought it was a cool idea when he showed it to me. Glad that there is at least one other knowledgeable person on here trying to spread the knowledge.



hey, i don't know about being knowledgeable. the more i learn the dumber i realize i am!! i just have picked up a few things over 30 plus years and from building cars with mike sargent back in the day. still i find that things change and people have new ways of doing things. BK always tells me to get current but i am just an old dog and am stuck in my ways that i know work for me!!



dirtdevil
December 04, 2008 at 01:06:21 AM
Joined: 09/30/2005
Posts: 1387
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This message was edited on December 04, 2008 at 01:15:38 AM by dirtdevil

ok guys your points are proubly valid, and some drivers (not rookies to novice)proubly see the effect of moving the roll center of the car around a bit , (most importantly is to realize the change and use it) there is so many other variations of what the car is actually doing on a given night that other aspects of the chassis could change things a great deal,Honestly, Im glad we can discuss something that actually amounts to something on here, truth be known, if I stood face to face with a few of you ,(over a cold one)you might let out more information than you'd proubly like to admit,as for different chassis adjustments ?if I hear of something I might try it and I use it, if I dont see the performance guained I throw it on the shelf, maybe I dont see the importance today but I might tommarrow?, and ill proubly try it again when its a good time ,

Ive noticed some things a driver likes, doesnt work for another, Ill say it again, I think the origonal post to this topic was aimed at a mild interpretation, maybe I put it wrong, but,in closeing,

Without the J ladder in a car, try poor the hotrod into turn one! , how would your ankles feel? care to try it?



Faster Pussycat
MyWebsite
December 04, 2008 at 09:38:57 AM
Joined: 05/30/2007
Posts: 813
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blah, blah, blah... I'm still trying to figure out how to mount, never mind adjust, a Wooka Bar I purchased in 1988.


"As long as I can have a fast boat, a margarita 
machine and can light my hair on fire, I'll be just 
fine."

Jason Giambi


nodust
MyWebsite
December 04, 2008 at 11:01:28 AM
Joined: 11/26/2004
Posts: 3334
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Posted By: Faster Pussycat on December 04 2008 at 09:38:57 AM

blah, blah, blah... I'm still trying to figure out how to mount, never mind adjust, a Wooka Bar I purchased in 1988.



can you mount a barfly?


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team wright-one
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December 04, 2008 at 11:27:55 AM
Joined: 11/29/2005
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Posted By: nodust on December 04 2008 at 11:01:28 AM

can you mount a barfly?



how far do you want the wings spread?





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