Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

"Wiring the field" used to be an infrequent event. Now it's just another night.

Not long ago, I didn't think twice about driving 150-200 miles to watch my beloved sprint cars. But these heads-up starts are keeping me from thinking about it once. 

SInce it is raining (imagine that) I decided to do a little research on your point using the numbers from the WoO.

According to my count:

1. There have been 63 features run up to this point in the season

2. 22 of the winners have come from the pole----making winning from the pole still an "infrequent event"

3. 16 of the winners have come from outside pole----making winning from the front row a "frequent event" as 38 of the 63 features have been won from 1st or 2nd.

The issue I have is I have been attending Outlaw races for the better part of 20 years and have been attending dirt races in general for 30-35 years.  From my recollection, follow the leader nights seem to make up 50% of my racing memories.  I always felt like you had to stick out a lot of pretty boring nights to see those few really great ones.  I feel like I am not remembering things quite like the rest of the "old timers" where every night was this knock down, drag out winner comes from 18th and there are non-stop slide jobs for the lead for the last 10 laps. 

I remember watching Kinser win by 1/2 a lap and putting everyone up to 6th a lap down.  I remember Sammy starting front row and never seeing another car next to him besides a lapper for 30 laps.  I remember races taking 8 minutes with no passing.  Am I the only one who remembers shitty races 15-20 years ago?  

I also remember people all over this board complaining about inverts putting the fastest car back in the pack too far to get to the front on a heavy track.  So, what was the point of qualifying fast?  So, the Outlaws fix this, and now we complain the other way.

I guess I just don't see how much has changed.  I go to the races with high hopes of seeing some really good racing.  However, my experience tells me the odds of seeing a very "pedestrian" race is about 50%.  

JMO's

I agree. Sure they are great drivers, so who wants to see them start in front most nights?  Pa use to be known for handicapping top guys. Most nights the top guy started 12th. It made for great racing and sometimes the low buck guy held on and won. Those days are over. Now Pa runs alot of time trial shows and not much handicapping. Maybe that why they getting ass kicked now days. Use to go to 30 or more, only been to 11 races this yr. Best two i enjoyed was 410's at Trailway and Port day show. NO TIME TRIALS!!

Don’t be corrupting my memories with facts

I might be wrong - actually there’s a good chance I am - but it seems to me that Steve, Sammy, and Doug had to do some passing somewhere to get to the front. And, yes, they often got way in the front.

Went to an All Star / WOO, Lucas Oil show at Attica a few years ago. Sprints put on a hell of a show while the Late Models lined up heats straight up by time trials. 3 or 4 heats of 7 cars & you're going to start Bloomquist & other big names on the damn pole. Not my cup of tea.

Ton of Late Model fans setting around us & when Bloomquist won they all just thought that was the greatest thing. I said you people clap for that shit. The 1st heat of sprints were just badass & when it ended I said that's what ya call racing.

I don't understand your logic?  Bloomquist was undoubtably the best late model driver for decades.  So, if he shows up fast, time trials fast, wins his heat, why does he then have to come from 8th-12th in the field?  What if the track is tacky and 1 grooved? Did he not already earn the spot on the pole?  I'm lost.  I just don't get the idea of promoting sandbagging.  Show up fast, go fast, and earn your starting spot.  You want to be on the pole, work on your qualifying.  It was fun to see Sammy on the pole for the King's Royal but he was not even close to the needed speed to win that race.   

(I can't stand Bloomquist BTW----the above goes for anyone)

I think the perspective depends a lot of what and where people see the majority of their racing. The Outlaws have always been a series with lots of front row winners, lots of races without much passing and only a handful of races every year won from further back than the first couple rows.

Here in PA, the entertainment of the weekly shows has definitely gone down because of the reduction in handicapped shows, So many of the races now resemble Outlaw shows won from the first two rows. Even five or 10 years ago, that was not the case.

I guess I don't have a problem with the handicapped shows, shuffles, draws, inverts and so on.  I just don't want to hear anyone bitching when their guy sets quick time, can't pass in the heats, and gets buried in the feature on a lock-down track.  

The more I think about what I just typed, I do kinda have a problem with it.  I've always liked the idea of making each and every night of sprint car racing like a mini-Knoxville Nationals format.  Points for positions, points for passing, inverts for heats.  At the end of the night, points determine your starting spot.  The problem is, you don't really get away from the problem of wire-to-wire races as the cream is usually going to rise to the top.  (which doesn't seem like a problem to me but in the context of this thread, it is the problem--I guess?)

Anyone remember when the outlaws inverted 6 or 8 in the heats? Start the fast timer 6th & transfer 4. He had to do some passing to make the A.  Not just beat 1 car into turn 1 then stay in front in clean air!

I remember years ago when there was a handicap/invert, there were still front row winners. In fact there was whining about guys sandbagging in qualifying to start upfront in the heats. There was also complaining that a guy could qualify 15th, win the heat, draw the pole, win the dash & feature. I get that part of this is entertainment but it's also competition, and in a competition I want the best to win by beating the best. 

Ever since the Outlaws have gone to the current format I find that the competition & battle for position has been better. Id much rather see the top three fastest cars in the #1 series battling for positions than being stuck battling for 7th. The days of multiple cars coming from back to front consistently are over. The equipment is too equal and the cars are running close together.

Very good points.  As someone else said no matter what format there is, it will encourage sandbagging at some point.  Unless you have a strait up type of format (quick time starts on pole of 1st heat and 1st heat winner lines up on pole), which I don't think anyone wants.  Personally the format I like best is the point average type of format but even that doesn't encourage a whole bunch of racing once you hit the transfer spot.  The only thing I really know is I hate time trials.

But you are 1000% right on lots of snoozers way back when.  Why do we remember the great races?  If every night was great racing nobody would ever remember the '95 Knoxville Nationals.  However no matter the format I think we can all agree that a track that is locked down where everyone is fast sucks.

Current Outlaw format is fine given the meta of today's racing. Everyone would like to see more passing but I'd rather see something done with the cars to accomplish that than tinkering with the format. Cars are too equal today and the aero advantages are very apparent. 

If you want to invert, do one of two things - blind invert or blind qualifying times. Hell, could even do both if you wanted. I think blind invert is the only one needed, and can definitely see a few issues with blind qualifying, but if you don't know the invert and you don't know what everyone is timing, it will make it quite difficult to sandbag correctly. The fastest guys will probably have the ability to sandbag even without knowing the time, but knowing whether they need to be top 4, top 8, top 12, etc. is where it gets difficult. 

you nailed it Nick----I'm with you 100%

Correct-----we remember the great races because we sit through a lot of snoozers to get there.  I watch time trials at the WoO races and Nationals because they ARE so crucial to the way the night/weekend is going to shake down.  However, I'm with you on the fact that they could replace them with something else and I'd be happy.  

I've posted this 5-10 times already for what I think would be the best format at any 410 show:  (except Nationals---I say leave that alone)

1.  Pill draw for 1st set of heat races---record passing points and finish points

2.  Complete invert of same heat races---record passing points and finish points

3.  Invert top 6, 8, or 10 for dash----record passing points and finish points

4.  Line up feature according to points or do a 4 or 6 car point invert.  

Nothing but racing all night. 2nd set of heats should get racier than 1st set of heats.  Why not?  If you're fast all night, you are going to end up starting top 6.  

And, I agree with your last sentence as well-----if the track is lock down fast, it's only fair the fastest car all night gets to start out front---as boring as that may be

I think we saw last night how the double heats/passing points format works out. 10 heats means a marathon show and you ain't leaving before midnight plus the number of laps means the track is gonna be a rubbered up parade around the bottom at some point before the feature is over, not to mention all the cars that end up on their lids with the gauntlet marathon of qualifying events in which each position means a lot. I hate those time trial plus double heat formats. To me the best qualifying format is the one that's the simplest and shortest. Add all those extra laps to the feature. That's the only race that pays. 

The best format for creating great feature racing has always been the points handicapping deal but that has it's issue too - It can only be used for local weekly shows and even then it's unfair to any invaders(discourages them from showing up). As already mentioned by another poster, the cars are a lot more even nowadays so that making it more difficult to win from mid-pack. Plus the cars are more locked down now than ever, making even that much harder to pass. I think the all-star and outlaw formats are about as good as you are gonna come up with for a travelling series as they try to reward time trials and doing well in your heat equally. 

A

I'm pretty sure some west coast tracks were done with their main event(s) before lincoln finished their one division marathon. Good for lincoln though, nice evening for racing and makin the dolla..

I say no qualifying with the double heats.  Say you have 30 cars.  3-10 car heats.  Line up heat 1, run it, heat 2, heat 3 and tell heat 1 to be back on the track for heat 4.  That should not add much extra time to the show in comparison to a show with qualifying.  

I like that plan...

What do you mean by "blind qualifying or blind invert"?

The Goodyear days were the best for passing in the A main. The tires actually deteriorated and made it fun. Nowadays you have to rely on lapped traffic, which despite the memories of the older folks on the board, has always been the case with winged sprint cars. 

Steve Kinser won the 1992 Knoxville Nats by 9 seconds.