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Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
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Topic: WoO Dash Draw Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 2   of  34 replies
percynz
MyWebsite
May 21, 2017 at 11:45:04 PM
Joined: 06/19/2015
Posts: 27
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I believe the past two nights of action at Williams Grove have shown the dash draw should be eliminated from the WoO format.

Some may say what we saw was the exception with big inversions. However I think what we saw simply highlighted the flaw in the current format. Given heat races are now run fastest to the front why is there a dash draw at all? What is being achieved by the dash draw? Time Trials are being decided by tenths of a second or in some cases hundedths of a second. Different drivers are timing well on different nights. So why use a randomised method to (effectively) set the front eight grids in the A-Main? 

Without demeaning the achievement of any driver (they have to race the format) does anyone think Shane Stewart takes the win and $17,000 starting the A-Main from grid 8? Jason Johnson set quick-time. Jason Johnson won his heat. If anyone wants to win the A-Main they should have to pass Jason Johnson.

We are told that each position a driver gains in a heat is worth 2 rows in the A-Main (when there are enough cars to allow for 4 heats). A driver who time trials a little slower can pass two cars in their heat and advance four rows up the A-Main grid. How is it the driver on pole can win their heat race and potentially go backwards 4 rows on the A-Main grid courtesy of a small child pulling a number out of a hat?

Whichever way I look at it I believe the dash draw has had it's day and should be removed at the earliest available opportunity.

 




dsc1600
May 21, 2017 at 11:58:55 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 2093
Reply

I would agree the 8 pill seems particularly unfair. 

I'll have to go back and look, but the amount of Grove races essentially decided by the pill draw has got to be pretty high the last 5 or so years. 



drw40
May 22, 2017 at 05:36:43 AM
Joined: 03/21/2008
Posts: 88
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: percynz on May 21 2017 at 11:45:04 PM

I believe the past two nights of action at Williams Grove have shown the dash draw should be eliminated from the WoO format.

Some may say what we saw was the exception with big inversions. However I think what we saw simply highlighted the flaw in the current format. Given heat races are now run fastest to the front why is there a dash draw at all? What is being achieved by the dash draw? Time Trials are being decided by tenths of a second or in some cases hundedths of a second. Different drivers are timing well on different nights. So why use a randomised method to (effectively) set the front eight grids in the A-Main? 

Without demeaning the achievement of any driver (they have to race the format) does anyone think Shane Stewart takes the win and $17,000 starting the A-Main from grid 8? Jason Johnson set quick-time. Jason Johnson won his heat. If anyone wants to win the A-Main they should have to pass Jason Johnson.

We are told that each position a driver gains in a heat is worth 2 rows in the A-Main (when there are enough cars to allow for 4 heats). A driver who time trials a little slower can pass two cars in their heat and advance four rows up the A-Main grid. How is it the driver on pole can win their heat race and potentially go backwards 4 rows on the A-Main grid courtesy of a small child pulling a number out of a hat?

Whichever way I look at it I believe the dash draw has had it's day and should be removed at the earliest available opportunity.

 



Posse fans will find anything to cry about when they get their a$$es whipped.



GTigers55
May 22, 2017 at 06:44:11 AM
Joined: 02/13/2017
Posts: 259
Reply

The reason it's there is because everyone would complain about the event being entirely decided by time trials if there wasn't the CHANCE for an invert. And they aren't going back 4 rows on the A main grid, they race to determine their spots. At big half miles, most the guys up there are equal speeds and therefore hard to pass. That's a result of the track not the format. I personally prefer the All Star format but that's just me. Hope I could help explain why they do the dash draw the way they do it a bit.



saphead
May 22, 2017 at 07:00:07 AM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 460
Reply

When a Posse driver is qualified to start on the pole of the dash, the highest # pill is placed in a refrigerator just before the draw. The 'fan' (WoO official dressed in plain clothes), then reaches into the jar, feels for the cold pill and whalah!,.....said posse driver starts in the rear of the dash! 

The same thing happened when the Knicks won the draft lottery and got to choose Patrick Ewing. It's very common in pro sports. 

 



shernernum
May 22, 2017 at 07:42:28 AM
Joined: 08/28/2014
Posts: 251
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: saphead on May 22 2017 at 07:00:07 AM

When a Posse driver is qualified to start on the pole of the dash, the highest # pill is placed in a refrigerator just before the draw. The 'fan' (WoO official dressed in plain clothes), then reaches into the jar, feels for the cold pill and whalah!,.....said posse driver starts in the rear of the dash! 

The same thing happened when the Knicks won the draft lottery and got to choose Patrick Ewing. It's very common in pro sports. 

 



Someone needs to call the Department of Labor and whatever office is in charge of youth protection, since the pill draws are being done by kid's most of the time.

Does Uncle Sam know that the WoO is unlawfully employing minors.



minthess
MyWebsite
May 22, 2017 at 07:46:35 AM
Joined: 12/09/2008
Posts: 2403
Reply

I just want to know how the 69k didn't win with late1960s lap times.


Luna's Ford engine style that won 2 WoO titles and 3 
Kings Royals before a weight rule against the best EVER
in their prime and now DOMINATES super dirt late model
racing is no longer allowed/wanted in a WoO sprint
car.... Was Luna a miracle worker?

Johnny Utah
May 22, 2017 at 08:37:37 AM
Joined: 07/15/2014
Posts: 518
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: minthess on May 22 2017 at 07:46:35 AM

I just want to know how the 69k didn't win with late1960s lap times.



Simple.  He didn't cross the finish line first.



Nickules
May 22, 2017 at 09:23:52 AM
Joined: 08/05/2015
Posts: 868
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Utah on May 22 2017 at 08:37:37 AM

Simple.  He didn't cross the finish line first.



+1 HaHa



NWFAN
May 22, 2017 at 09:35:05 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 1879
Reply

sandbagging only goes so far.


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

Nickules
May 22, 2017 at 10:23:29 AM
Joined: 08/05/2015
Posts: 868
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: NWFAN on May 22 2017 at 09:35:05 AM

sandbagging only goes so far.



If I remember correctly one of the reasons (there were other reasons as well) in changing the WoO format was in response to sandbagging to try and catch the invert.  Now fastest qualifiers are rewarded.  So in essence no more "attempts" at sandbagging...if you believe teams purposely sandbagged before. 



Geekboy8
May 22, 2017 at 10:57:26 AM
Joined: 05/02/2010
Posts: 26
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: saphead on May 22 2017 at 07:00:07 AM

When a Posse driver is qualified to start on the pole of the dash, the highest # pill is placed in a refrigerator just before the draw. The 'fan' (WoO official dressed in plain clothes), then reaches into the jar, feels for the cold pill and whalah!,.....said posse driver starts in the rear of the dash! 

The same thing happened when the Knicks won the draft lottery and got to choose Patrick Ewing. It's very common in pro sports. 

 



Lmfao that is some funny shit right there. Good humor



dirtlover
May 22, 2017 at 12:14:06 PM
Joined: 07/15/2013
Posts: 325
Reply

woo always has and always will bury fast guys in the field cause its what they do



whemme
May 22, 2017 at 12:21:41 PM
Joined: 05/20/2017
Posts: 2
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: dirtlover on May 22 2017 at 12:14:06 PM

woo always has and always will bury fast guys in the field cause its what they do



I think the WOO dash is confusing to the fans.



vande77
May 22, 2017 at 12:32:53 PM
Joined: 01/20/2005
Posts: 2079
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: whemme on May 22 2017 at 12:21:41 PM

I think the WOO dash is confusing to the fans.



All sprint car formats are confusing to any non-hard-core fan.

Handicapped shows in PA?   Joe Blow attending the first time doesn't understand why a guy that wins his heat starts 12th in the feature (because he's won the most $$ at the track this year).

Knoxville, points for TT and heats, invert of 6 in the heats,  invert of 0, 4, 6 or 8 in the feature based on total points.  Joe Blow (and even hard-core fans) don't know who is starting where until line-ups are released.

WoO - TT determine heat race line-ups (fastest at the front), Top 2 in heats make the dash (you don't have to be fastest car), and dash has an invert of 0,4,6 or 8.  Dash finish determines lineup for first 4 rows of feature.   Joe Blow doesn't understand why the guy who qualified quick time, but finished 4th in his heat has to start 13th in the feature.

Outside of have NO INVERT at all, any format is confusing.  Dirt track racing is the only form of racing I have ever seen that uses an invert of any kind during any event.  Most auto racing lines up the fastest cars at the front of everything.  Yet the fans complain about lack of passing.  The only way you can see passing is for faster cars to start behind slower cars IMO.  You may need to tweak the rules to make sure we get back to where fast cars were much faster than slower cars (not the current .5 seconds from quick time to 24th fast).

All that matters to me is that it quits raining every weekend.  I'm ready to see some more racing.



Nickules
May 22, 2017 at 02:07:08 PM
Joined: 08/05/2015
Posts: 868
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: vande77 on May 22 2017 at 12:32:53 PM

All sprint car formats are confusing to any non-hard-core fan.

Handicapped shows in PA?   Joe Blow attending the first time doesn't understand why a guy that wins his heat starts 12th in the feature (because he's won the most $$ at the track this year).

Knoxville, points for TT and heats, invert of 6 in the heats,  invert of 0, 4, 6 or 8 in the feature based on total points.  Joe Blow (and even hard-core fans) don't know who is starting where until line-ups are released.

WoO - TT determine heat race line-ups (fastest at the front), Top 2 in heats make the dash (you don't have to be fastest car), and dash has an invert of 0,4,6 or 8.  Dash finish determines lineup for first 4 rows of feature.   Joe Blow doesn't understand why the guy who qualified quick time, but finished 4th in his heat has to start 13th in the feature.

Outside of have NO INVERT at all, any format is confusing.  Dirt track racing is the only form of racing I have ever seen that uses an invert of any kind during any event.  Most auto racing lines up the fastest cars at the front of everything.  Yet the fans complain about lack of passing.  The only way you can see passing is for faster cars to start behind slower cars IMO.  You may need to tweak the rules to make sure we get back to where fast cars were much faster than slower cars (not the current .5 seconds from quick time to 24th fast).

All that matters to me is that it quits raining every weekend.  I'm ready to see some more racing.



This.  Sprint Car formats are confusing as hell to non hardcore fans. 

Of all the stuff you list above the WoO format might be easiset to explain, understand and remember. 



blazer00
May 22, 2017 at 02:32:49 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 1312
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Nickules on May 22 2017 at 10:23:29 AM

If I remember correctly one of the reasons (there were other reasons as well) in changing the WoO format was in response to sandbagging to try and catch the invert.  Now fastest qualifiers are rewarded.  So in essence no more "attempts" at sandbagging...if you believe teams purposely sandbagged before. 



ANYBODY (not pointing fingers) who thinks a sprint car driver can go out and sandbag a lap within 2 tenths of a second (or less), has "sand" for brains! Plus, not knowing where the window is for those 2 tenths (or less) that would position a driver in the right qualifying spot? That would take a crystal ball. There are also those that say because Schatz is not that swift at qualifying, that heads up may have handicapped him some. That may or may not be the case. Eliminating the invert for the most part eliminated most non Outlaw tour drivers from making the front rows of the heat races. And with approximately 85% of the heats being won from the front row over the past several years, the edge for making the Dash goes to the Outlaws. Yeh there are a few tracks that have stout enough competion where non Outlaws earn their way in, but only a few. The All Star format still provides the best method of lining up heats, and offers the best heat race action.



EZ2BME
May 22, 2017 at 02:40:17 PM
Joined: 01/13/2009
Posts: 1406
Reply

I Can't Stand The Dashes Or Inverts or Multi car time trials or Heat Races with the fast cars starting up front

it's SO ******* SIMPLE Pill draw as you enter for Heat Races lineup the feature races how they finish in the heat races

if you cant handle that then Handi cap ALL of Woo's Traveling Teams on last 3 Races avg Finish start Worst Average up front and Best avg at back Then Fit the Non travelling teams in accordingly TO HOW THEY FINISH IN THERE HEAT RACES Smile

THE FRIGGIN KISS SYSTEM KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID Smile

THEN YOU'LL SEE SOME RACING AND PASSING B U T as long asthe grandstands ARE PACKED it will go on as statis Quo ;(

 

  

 

 



Nickules
May 22, 2017 at 02:52:25 PM
Joined: 08/05/2015
Posts: 868
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on May 22 2017 at 02:32:49 PM

ANYBODY (not pointing fingers) who thinks a sprint car driver can go out and sandbag a lap within 2 tenths of a second (or less), has "sand" for brains! Plus, not knowing where the window is for those 2 tenths (or less) that would position a driver in the right qualifying spot? That would take a crystal ball. There are also those that say because Schatz is not that swift at qualifying, that heads up may have handicapped him some. That may or may not be the case. Eliminating the invert for the most part eliminated most non Outlaw tour drivers from making the front rows of the heat races. And with approximately 85% of the heats being won from the front row over the past several years, the edge for making the Dash goes to the Outlaws. Yeh there are a few tracks that have stout enough competion where non Outlaws earn their way in, but only a few. The All Star format still provides the best method of lining up heats, and offers the best heat race action.



Yo Blaze, I'm with you...I'm of the mind that there's no way possible to purposely attempt to sandbag bc as you note we're talking about 1/10 of a second.  I also like the All Star format.



MoOpenwheel
May 22, 2017 at 03:14:51 PM
Joined: 07/27/2005
Posts: 455
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: blazer00 on May 22 2017 at 02:32:49 PM

ANYBODY (not pointing fingers) who thinks a sprint car driver can go out and sandbag a lap within 2 tenths of a second (or less), has "sand" for brains! Plus, not knowing where the window is for those 2 tenths (or less) that would position a driver in the right qualifying spot? That would take a crystal ball. There are also those that say because Schatz is not that swift at qualifying, that heads up may have handicapped him some. That may or may not be the case. Eliminating the invert for the most part eliminated most non Outlaw tour drivers from making the front rows of the heat races. And with approximately 85% of the heats being won from the front row over the past several years, the edge for making the Dash goes to the Outlaws. Yeh there are a few tracks that have stout enough competion where non Outlaws earn their way in, but only a few. The All Star format still provides the best method of lining up heats, and offers the best heat race action.



I don't think they sandbagged either. But slower times DID get an advantage. Times 5-8 got hosed in the old format. 9-16 started front row of heat with a much better chance to win and advance to the dash. If you're going to qualify I don't think slower times should get an advantage in heat lineups. I like how they do it now. Faster times in front. But finish position is what determines the dash and main lineups. You actually get credit for each car you pass unlike before when only winning the heat helped you.  

When Pittman won the championship he took a lot of grief for not winning as many races as Schatz. It was said qualifying points are what won it for him. That was partly true. But I looked it up and due to the inverts he started behind Schatz in the dash more times than in front of him. All those top 4 times helped with points and locking into the dash but not necessarily with starting position in A mains. 





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