Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

At times it is discouraging coming to this board and seeing so many of the topics turn into negative, hateful exchanges between posters and directed toward each other, drivers, tracks, regions of the country, promotors, sanctioning bodies, etc.  Positive passion is one thing.  And there’s nothing wrong with a good, intelligent, civil debate.  But too often these exchanges are more like destructive poison aimed at the subject or parties on the opposing side. 

The discussions these last few months around Badlands/NSL/Knoxville fall right into this category.

I love sprint car racing first and foremost.  Have been to races many places but Knoxville is my home track so in many ways I feel spoiled.  From the people to the facilities, the safety crew, track prep and quality of the competitors and racing program, I count it a blessing to have Knoxville 30 min away. Last year had to have been one of the best years in terms of both quantity and quality of competitors racing at Knoxville on a weekly basis.

And the startup of the NSL last year was exciting for the future outlook of 410 racing and sprint car racing in general in this area of the country.  Really appreciate all that Tod Quiring (and team) is doing to invest in and build the sport.  From the outside, it seems his intentions have been to build the sport in this region of the country by providing teams more opportunities to race for increased purses, working in conjunction with tracks/promotors, not against them, and create win-win opportunities for all parties; race teams, tracks, and fans.

It wasn’t too hard to imagine a future in this region with 3 tracks (Jackson, Knoxville, Huset’s), running weekly 410’s, on 3 separate nights. Wow! With the tracks and NSL working together it’s likely the NSL schedule would have been a heavy dose of those three tracks with other mid-week dates/tracks sprinkled in.  Overall that seemed like a very positive situation.

Enter new ownership in Brandon, SD and the newly branded Badlands speedway moving its 410 program to Saturday nights in 2016, competing directly with Knoxville. 

To say because the tracks are 300 miles apart they won’t compete with each other just isn’t correct.  Perhaps to a lesser extent for fan base but they will certainly overlap each other in areas with the pool of competitors. Look at the regular 410 competitors in any year at Knoxville and you will see cars from MO, KS, NE, SD, MN, WI, IL, and IA.  This isn’t a densely populated region of the country so the pool of 410 owners/teams is widely spread. Zomer, TMac, Lynton, AMac, Dobs, (TK?) are perfect examples. All strong competitors. Only 5 or 6 cars, sure. But it does equate to 15%-25% of the weekly 410 field. Last year fans would have seen them at both tracks. That’s no longer possible with the two tracks operating on the same night. Selfishly I’d like to watch them at Knoxville too.

I personally believe the potential for success is greater if tracks/promoters/sanctions are cooperatively working together to draw more (new) fans and competitors to the sport, rather than compete against each other for the existing ones.  That being said, I don’t begrudge the owner of Badlands from doing what he believes to be in the best interest of his business, including competing against Knoxville on Saturday nights. I can understand the argument that Saturday is a better night for the fans and competitors in terms of travel/jobs.  But they will continue with a Sunday night program as well so moving 410’s seems more motivated by trying to hurt Knoxville than a change for the fans/competitors. I may take issue with his “screw Knoxville” attitude and tactics but do believe he’s free to choose his path.

It will definitely be disappointing not having Zomer, TMac, Lynton, AMac, Dobs, and possibly TK on a regular basis at Knoxville this year. In the end, however, I’m coming at this with a different perspective. With those cars gone I believe it will encourage/open the door for other teams to move into the 410 ranks, and in turn, new teams to come into the other classes. There’s a lot of young talent and stars in the making at Knoxville and I think this will create positive opportunities for them to flourish.  I’m personally looking forward to the summer at Knoxville and excited for what it will bring.    

Here’s hoping 2016 is a very successful season for everyone and the overall health of sprint car racing in the Midwest.

Well said. I hope Husets/Badlands succeeds, to hope otherwise would be the closing of another track. Why does it have to be the "us versus them" mentality with name calling and such. I like the reply the new maketing director at Knoxville gave when asked about Badlands. Something like "we can't worry about them, we just have to make our track the best it can be". Just think of it like there will be two $5000.00 winners on Sat. night instead of just one. Some local teams that don't travel can make a little more money at both tracks.  Thanks, Bob

Classy post.  The only thing I'd like to add is the statement about adding a Saturday at Badlands.  Granted they are still running Sundays, but pretty much splitting the shows in half.  Half the field of cars on Sunday will result in a timly ending of the show.  I would guess most fans and drivers would rather be done earlier being most work on Mondays.  

My home track is Jackson.  I'm excited what they are doing there, new main grandstand, adding another grandstand on 1&2 connected via catwalk.  New 3/8ths track being built inside the half mile.  All good stuff.   I remember when the idea out there was you needed to run the NSL 100% to receive the full purse.  A lot of comments how unfair that was because Knoxville drivers do not travel well or something along those lines.  Seems silly to worry about Badlands if that really is the case.  Maybe it was they don't travel well on a Friday for jackson or something.  Regardless, I know Knoxville will do well as they always do.  Jackson and Badlands are still TBD with all the changes.  Also I read that Lynton is running Knoxville 11- 12 times this year from him on the badlands FB page so not sure whats going on there.

Jackson MN to Brandon SD: 82 miles

Jackson MN to Knoxville IA to Brandon SD: 606 miles

Jackson to Brandon $10,000 to win. 

Jackson to Knoxville to Brandon $15,000 to win. 

A well written post , and much spoken here . Never a good thing running against each other on Saturday night no matter where you are . Yes, drivers hopefully will earn more dollars . Unfortunately the fans lose not seeing most of all the cars at one track . I think expenses have made the decision for alot of the teams .

I've seen a lot of disccusion on the three tracks. I am very familiar with Knoxville. Can someone give a little background on Husets and Jackson. Haven't been to them for years. What size of crowds do they draw outside of special events?

Curious.

Hello, McFly...Hello

Drivers can still tow the 600 miles from Jackson to Knoxville to Brandon.  They can still race at Brandon for $2,500 to win, exactly like they could in 2015, it is now with a 360 motor instead of a 410.

People need to let go of this assumption that Badlands was automatically going to pay $5,000 to win on a Sunday.  The crowds were not strong enough to support that previously.  If they couldn't support that last year, how in the world would they be able to support it in 2016, when drivers now can run Jackson on Fridays and Knoxville Saturdays.  The hope that AMAC, TMAC, Zomer, Kaeding etc were all going to be towing 600 miles every weekend is preposterous.  So they adopted a new business model.  Badlands business model is entirely predicated on drawing 125% of the fans on Saturday that they have historically drawn on a Sunday.  They HAVE TO in order to pay the increased purse.  In addition, their business model requires additional nights of "advertising" in order to justify in the increased charges for billboards, program ads etc. 

I think the most interesting part in all of this is that everyone assumes this is going to work. Everyone assumes that these tracks were rolling in so much dough, that they can just increase their purses by 60-120% without changing how they operate.  Lets take a look at each facility.

Knoxville

I struggle to believe that Knoxville had a 22,000 purse, and now all of a sudden can pay a 35000 purse to 410 drivers (all other classes/payroll remaining the same) without increasing their ticket cost.  However, that is excactly what it appears they are going to do.  That means that 600-700 in paid attendance needs to show up weekly to cover the difference.  I cannot believe Knoxville has just been pocketting all the extra money in the past and now is going to pay it.  I also think that after 1-2 years of this, they cut their purse as they cannot justify losing 13k/week.  You can only dip into the Knoxville Nationals kiddy for so long before you start to realize that this weekly deal just isn't cutting it.  Knoxville hasn't exactly been the pinacle of stability either the past 4 years since Cappy quit.  Toby, Brian, and now John.  Heck, they had 2 GM's quit in 3 years.  It looks a lot to me like the Knoxville Board pannicked with no one at the helm, ran out and blew up their purse, hired a new PR firm and generally ran around like a chicken with its head cut off.  The new business plan is the old business plan with higher expenses in terms of PR and purse.  Hmmm, interesting to watch.

Badlands

Badlands is facing the same questions, but adding a whole new element of risk.  They were making enough to pay a purse of approximately 12-14k for 410's plus the various back gate on Sunday nights.  They now are going to try and pay a 27kpurse, on a new night of the week, with less back gate.  That is one heck of a risky venture.  In addition, they have created an entirely new pricing structure with season tickets.  Their system looks more like the Kansas City Cheifs than anything that local dirt track racing has ever seen.  They are going to need to sell their season tickets, and hope the advertisers buy into paying double for their product to be viewed 2 nights a week instead of one.  Obviously it wasn't going to happen on Sundays or they would be running on Sundays.  Will it happen on Saturdays?  Time will tell but I cannot see Sioux Falls fans supporting 2 nights of racing a week.  Ultimately they will have to decide if it is worth running Saturday or Sunday, and a purse that can be supported by the fan count.  Either way, their business model is completely changed, and while very interesting, put the RISK in risky.

Winners=THE RACERS

Racers are the big winners in this one.  They are going to be racing the same cars, same equipment and on the same tracks as 2015, but with twice the number of dates, rainout options on Saturday nights, and the added carrot of a Sunday night track to race at for the same purse that was there in 2015 but with a motor that doesn't cost as much with rebuilds.  It is a bit shocking that all the 360 teams are not looking at purchasing a 410, as there is a lot of money to race for this upcoming year.  More than there has ever been in sprint car racing in any area.  Even PA doesn't have the huge purse amounts that are going to be doled out weekly.  Add in the various Outlaw shows in the area, and this is going to be one heck of a year to be a race car driver.  I hope they enjoy it, because there is no way that it lasts.

NSL

Ultimately the NSL is going to turn out great.  They have a lot of dates at Jackson and Knoxville, plus the support of 4-6 other tracks where they will be able to race.  The NSL doesn't really have a lot to lose, as they have Jackson and Knoxville wrapped up, St Francois and 34 picking up dates.  The drivers will get some variety in racing, and still be able to hit up Badlands on the Gold Cup, Season Championship and others.

Yes , an excellent post with much written words here . Never good for tracks to be running against each other unless I think it is a good idea for revenge on a track that has not listened to my many , many letters about painting the shower stalls pink. Yes , drivers will be making more in dollars and sense . Too bad the woo won't listen and doesn't care about you, the Great Fans of our  Great Sport , this is all there fault.

I believe Knoxville is paying the same for 410's on non-NSL nights as they have in previous years, from my interprutation the NSL are the ones increasing the 410 purse at Knoxville.  Either way it is a plus for the drivers!

This made me laugh ^

This is correct.  Knoxville isn't changing it's previous years purse model.  The NSL nights will pay more, non NSL night pay the same as last year.  Jackson will pay 5k every friday night they run since all of the friday night shows will be NSL shows.  Tod's series and track.

The NSL should change their name. They sure are NOT a nation league. They have a schedule that looks like the MSA 360's up here. 2 tracks only.... All that due to a bitch match between a few guys.... wow

I tell it like I see it.

Looks to me NSL not running Badlands is NSL's loss not Badlands. NSL 360 schedule does not look overly impressive either.

410's at Jackson was a big deal because they only did it a couple times a year. But with them racing most Fridays thru out the summer does not seem like such a big deal.

12 tracks if you don't count Lincoln in PA for the Dirt Classic......

(2) $15,000 to win events

(4) $10,000 to win events

(3) $7,500 to win events

This is out of the 20 events on the National Schedule. This seems like really good paying events for 360s too. We also know that the NSL is not as top heavy as most series or tracks and will have a decent point fund as well. If anything this is an impressive schedule.

+1

Yeah look where most of those race's are so really kind of pointless for this discussion. 

Enlighten me how this is pointless for this discussion?