HoseHeads.com | HoseHeads Classifieds | Racer's Auction
Home | Register | Contact | Verify Email | FAQ |
Blogs | Photo Gallery | Press Release | Results | HoseheadsClassifieds.com


Welcome Guest. Already registered? Please Login

 

Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead


Records per page
 
Topic: Inconsistencies with timing and scoring at Stockton Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
Page 1 of 1   of  16 replies
Dzus Button
March 22, 2015 at 03:38:58 PM
Joined: 03/22/2015
Posts: 57
Reply

JG said in the broadcast that Shane led lap 29.  This is also what all WOO press releases say. HOWEVER...Timing and scoring says that Donny led lap 29 as well. Timing and scoring says 15, 2, 71M was the running order thru the entire GWC restart and Shane never had the lead since losing it to Donny at lap 16.

http://www.mylaps.com/en/lapchart/3401201

The main reason for all the fuss this morning lies here. There are too many inconsistencies with the scoring. We shouldn't focus on whose car looks to cross a timing line first that is not clearly marked from camera angles that are not on said timing line, but rather how the data doesn't add up that is being presented to us. How can WOO say that Shane led lap 29 when your timing and scoring says different? How can Donny have won the race by 0.22 seconds when his last lap was only 0.037 faster than Shane's final lap and Shane was reported as the leader of lap 29?




Johnny Gibson
March 22, 2015 at 04:09:27 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 455
Reply

See my reply in the "video of race" thread.  The problem occured when a car was "over the edge" of the auto track, where the scoring loop angles across the horse track. 



NWFAN
March 22, 2015 at 07:30:17 PM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
Reply

so if that is the case which part of the angle of the dangle was brad sweets new record recorded from, in & out burger?

and which version was your visual account of the finish??


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...


Johnny Gibson
March 22, 2015 at 10:36:34 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 455
Reply

The track record is legit--it occured before the track widened out and cars were "over the edge" to where the loop angles. My vantage point was to the turn 4 side of the line/stand, and so it initially appeared to me that Stewart was going to win it.   Again, the Sprint Car Stats video has the most definitive angle, as he was sitting almost directly in line with the loop. (Oh by the way it was Schatz who set the record.)



NWFAN
March 23, 2015 at 10:57:11 AM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
Reply

Oh BTW, it was Sweet at Tulare, I never said Stockton...


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

oswald
March 23, 2015 at 01:28:43 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1982
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Gibson on March 22 2015 at 10:36:34 PM

The track record is legit--it occured before the track widened out and cars were "over the edge" to where the loop angles. My vantage point was to the turn 4 side of the line/stand, and so it initially appeared to me that Stewart was going to win it.   Again, the Sprint Car Stats video has the most definitive angle, as he was sitting almost directly in line with the loop. (Oh by the way it was Schatz who set the record.)



So post that video that clearly shows Schatz won so we can all see it.




Johnny Gibson
March 23, 2015 at 02:13:45 PM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 455
Reply

It was posted on the "video of race" thread. . . but since you missed it, I'll re-post the link:    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=807593422611860



buzz rightrear
March 23, 2015 at 02:56:32 PM
Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 2511
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Dzus Button on March 22 2015 at 03:38:58 PM

JG said in the broadcast that Shane led lap 29.  This is also what all WOO press releases say. HOWEVER...Timing and scoring says that Donny led lap 29 as well. Timing and scoring says 15, 2, 71M was the running order thru the entire GWC restart and Shane never had the lead since losing it to Donny at lap 16.

http://www.mylaps.com/en/lapchart/3401201

The main reason for all the fuss this morning lies here. There are too many inconsistencies with the scoring. We shouldn't focus on whose car looks to cross a timing line first that is not clearly marked from camera angles that are not on said timing line, but rather how the data doesn't add up that is being presented to us. How can WOO say that Shane led lap 29 when your timing and scoring says different? How can Donny have won the race by 0.22 seconds when his last lap was only 0.037 faster than Shane's final lap and Shane was reported as the leader of lap 29?



Actually the race monitor scoring shows that both cars were listed as first place on lap 29. How can Donnie and Shane both be listed as leaders of lap 29? When you look at the lap by lap scoring for each driver lap 29 shows Shane leading and it also shows Donnie leading so right there is an obvious inconsistency


to indy and beyond!!

NWFAN
March 23, 2015 at 05:21:50 PM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
Reply

i agree with the above comments (or another post) to put a go-pro camera at the finish line (wherever the stand may be located) to benifit the masses of teams, drivers and fans.  with times so close within 100ths. of a second make it at the flag stand  like all other racing venues and not some imaginary line across the "HORSE TRACK!"   make it constant at every track....imo & just sayin'


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...


buzz rightrear
March 23, 2015 at 06:27:03 PM
Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 2511
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: NWFAN on March 23 2015 at 05:21:50 PM

i agree with the above comments (or another post) to put a go-pro camera at the finish line (wherever the stand may be located) to benifit the masses of teams, drivers and fans.  with times so close within 100ths. of a second make it at the flag stand  like all other racing venues and not some imaginary line across the "HORSE TRACK!"   make it constant at every track....imo & just sayin'



it doesn't matter where the official line is as long as it is clearly marked. to avoid even more confusion it should also be at the same place the scoring loop is.

but back to what matters here. as i stated above the lap by lap scoring for donnie shows him leading lap 29. the lap by lap scoring for shane shows him leading lap 29. it shows donnie leading lap 28 and shane second. it also shows donnie running a faster lap 29 than shane. so if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29, how can shane be leading lap 29?

i am not trying to argue for or against either driver, just wondering how both drivers could be scored as leading on their lap by lap resuls and how if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29 than shane, that shane could be listed as leading lap 29 at all.

the .22 time difference between donnie and shane at the end of the race is the difference between when donnie broke the scoring loop and when shane did.  in the results it has a listing for "difference" and "gap". difference is the time behind the leader on that lap and gap is the time behind the car directly ahead. both the time difference of "difference" and "gap" will be the same for the second place car as the leader was the car directly ahead. for every other car after second place the difference is the time behind the leader and gap is the time behind the car one position ahead.

in my opinion if electronic scoring is to be used the timing loop should run in a straight 90 degree line across the track from a point inside the infield all the way to the crash wall or the furthest point a car can travel off the outside of the racing surface. that way the official finish line is consistant across the track and the immediate surrounding finish location. we depend so much on the electronic scoring because most of these dirt tracks do not have a clearly marked and defined start/finish line.


to indy and beyond!!

Points
March 24, 2015 at 01:22:13 AM
Joined: 12/01/2004
Posts: 243
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on March 23 2015 at 06:27:03 PM

it doesn't matter where the official line is as long as it is clearly marked. to avoid even more confusion it should also be at the same place the scoring loop is.

but back to what matters here. as i stated above the lap by lap scoring for donnie shows him leading lap 29. the lap by lap scoring for shane shows him leading lap 29. it shows donnie leading lap 28 and shane second. it also shows donnie running a faster lap 29 than shane. so if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29, how can shane be leading lap 29?

i am not trying to argue for or against either driver, just wondering how both drivers could be scored as leading on their lap by lap resuls and how if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29 than shane, that shane could be listed as leading lap 29 at all.

the .22 time difference between donnie and shane at the end of the race is the difference between when donnie broke the scoring loop and when shane did.  in the results it has a listing for "difference" and "gap". difference is the time behind the leader on that lap and gap is the time behind the car directly ahead. both the time difference of "difference" and "gap" will be the same for the second place car as the leader was the car directly ahead. for every other car after second place the difference is the time behind the leader and gap is the time behind the car one position ahead.

in my opinion if electronic scoring is to be used the timing loop should run in a straight 90 degree line across the track from a point inside the infield all the way to the crash wall or the furthest point a car can travel off the outside of the racing surface. that way the official finish line is consistant across the track and the immediate surrounding finish location. we depend so much on the electronic scoring because most of these dirt tracks do not have a clearly marked and defined start/finish line.



Maybe its just a quirk in the system that your seeing them both leading lap 29. wasn't schatz leading 29 when the last yellow came out and shane leading 29 after the restart. Just a thought no. we may never know



buzz rightrear
March 24, 2015 at 02:15:45 AM
Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 2511
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Points on March 24 2015 at 01:22:13 AM

Maybe its just a quirk in the system that your seeing them both leading lap 29. wasn't schatz leading 29 when the last yellow came out and shane leading 29 after the restart. Just a thought no. we may never know



well of course there is a quirk in the system if both drivers are shown to be leading the same lap. that is the point of calling attention to it. if there is one blatant quirk, then what others might there be?

was lap 29 completed at the last yellow? no matter what the scoring should have reverted back and shane shown as the leader on lap 29 as he was clearly in front.


to indy and beyond!!


buzz rightrear
March 24, 2015 at 02:43:15 AM
Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 2511
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Johnny Gibson on March 22 2015 at 04:09:27 PM

See my reply in the "video of race" thread.  The problem occured when a car was "over the edge" of the auto track, where the scoring loop angles across the horse track. 



so shane actually had to travel further than donnie in order to trip the electronics at the line? then how do we know that shane didn't hit the point on the track where the loop should have been if it was in a continuous straight line before donnie did?

i think i understand what you are saying. the thing is if the loop takes off at an angle that puts it futher up the track towards turn one, and that is the explanation for why the gap was so great between both cars at the finish according to the electronics, then ho do we know shane didn't hit the finish line before donnie?

on the next to last lap it looks like donnie was right on shanes rear bumper close to the line. so it is possible that shane had a few thousandths of a second at least of a lead and maybe it could even have been a hundredth or two.

even if they hit the line at the same time the difference between donnies lap time and the gap shown in scoring leaves .183 difference. take away even 8 hundredths of a second to make up for the lead shane had the last lap which would seem to be a very generous estimation, and you still end up with shane hitting the line a tenth before donnie.

i don't know what happened. i do know without a clear finish line and a picture taken at the correct angle at that clearly defined line that it is hard to tell who was where at what time. i do think everyone involved does their best to try to do things correctly. the thing is the math doesn't seem to add up, at least with the figures i have to work with.


to indy and beyond!!

NWFAN
March 24, 2015 at 05:44:09 PM
Joined: 12/07/2006
Posts: 2347
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: buzz rightrear on March 23 2015 at 06:27:03 PM

it doesn't matter where the official line is as long as it is clearly marked. to avoid even more confusion it should also be at the same place the scoring loop is.

but back to what matters here. as i stated above the lap by lap scoring for donnie shows him leading lap 29. the lap by lap scoring for shane shows him leading lap 29. it shows donnie leading lap 28 and shane second. it also shows donnie running a faster lap 29 than shane. so if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29, how can shane be leading lap 29?

i am not trying to argue for or against either driver, just wondering how both drivers could be scored as leading on their lap by lap resuls and how if donnie was leading lap 28 and ran a faster lap 29 than shane, that shane could be listed as leading lap 29 at all.

the .22 time difference between donnie and shane at the end of the race is the difference between when donnie broke the scoring loop and when shane did.  in the results it has a listing for "difference" and "gap". difference is the time behind the leader on that lap and gap is the time behind the car directly ahead. both the time difference of "difference" and "gap" will be the same for the second place car as the leader was the car directly ahead. for every other car after second place the difference is the time behind the leader and gap is the time behind the car one position ahead.

in my opinion if electronic scoring is to be used the timing loop should run in a straight 90 degree line across the track from a point inside the infield all the way to the crash wall or the furthest point a car can travel off the outside of the racing surface. that way the official finish line is consistant across the track and the immediate surrounding finish location. we depend so much on the electronic scoring because most of these dirt tracks do not have a clearly marked and defined start/finish line.



buzz....i agree with your last paragraph sums up what i was trying to say...a 90 degree angle and should be at the flag stand....or damn close....


Ascot was the greatest of all time..

West Capital wasn't half bad either..

Life is good...

racerguy6n
March 24, 2015 at 09:47:22 PM
Joined: 12/11/2004
Posts: 129
Reply

John Gibson, I was not at the race and believe if Schatz was declared the winner, then he is the winner.  This is not an argument, but rather an attempt to understand the scoring system that is now used by so many tracks.

If Shane led lap 29, and his final lap time is only .037 slower than Schatz, how can the MOV be .22?  I understand your comment on the loop, but isn't that irrevelant?  Shanes car crossed the loop and his lap was recorded at .037 slower than the Schatz lap after being ahead at the stripe the previous lap.  If the loop where Shane crossed is actually farther down the track, then Shane technically covered more ground and was only .037 slower.  Wherever the loop was, Shane crossed it and his time was recorded.  Therefor, how can the MOV not be less than .037?  Regardless of the loop, the MOV and the lap times HAVE to match, right?   

Again, I'm not trying to work you over, just trying to understand it.  Thanks for your input so far, it's nice that you take the time to post here.




Johnny Gibson
March 25, 2015 at 04:00:50 AM
Joined: 12/02/2004
Posts: 455
Reply

The Margin of Victory (MOV) was NOT .220 second--that's where the issue with the loop and the angle at which it crosses the horse track comes into play.  Here's the situation as best I can describe it:  Stockton Dirt Track is a 3/8 mile oval built INSIDE the 1 mile horse track.  The outside edge of the frontstretch of the auto track touches the inside edge of the horse track. The scoring loop (which is actually a coax cable buried under the racing surface) at Stockton goes straight across the auto track, then angles sharply toward turn one as it crosses the horse track to a junction box on the outside of the horse track.  By the end of the race on Saturday, Shane Stewart was actually drifiting up over the edge of the auto track and onto the horse track on the frontstretch, and therefore not crossing the buried cable until some 20+ feet beyond the official finish line. That's why the electronic soring recorded Donny Schatz leading lap 29 when in fact it was Stewart in the lead.  On the final lap, Stewart once again was over the edge of the track, and didn't cross the cable and register completion of his lap until he was actually past the official line, thus accounting for a MOV (.220 second) that was greater that the ACTUAL MOV at the official line.  World of Outlaws officials used a combination of visual (manual scorer) and video evidence to confirm that Donny Schatz was the first driver to cross the official line at the completion of the final lap. 

Race Monitor is an app that collects data from Orbits (the official timing/scoring program used with the MyLaps electronic timing and scoring sytem) and extrapolates that data for display on mobil phones, etc. From what I've been able to gather  from information from Race Monitor, the fact that Race Monitor shows both Shane Stewart AND Donny Schatz leading lap 29 on their individual Race Monitor pages has something to do with the way the data from Orbits is collected and distributed by Race Monitor, and is realated to the difference in lap times due to the angle of the loop as it crosses the horse track off of the actual auto racing surface. I'm not a "tech guy", and I won't pretend to understand the full explanation I received via email, but I trust the "tech guys" that tried to explain it to me.

Finally, for those that maintain that Race Monitor showed Shane Stewart winning by .010 second: there are two ways of displaying Race Monitor information: Sorting by lap time, and sorting by running order. (The way to tell the difference: sorting by lap time displays a stopwatch in the upper right corer of the screen, and by running order shows a podium.) If viewing by lap time, it would show Stewart in the top position on the final lap, and by a margin of .010 second.

Again, this situation is unique to Stockton, and the coax cable will be relocated to run at a 90 degree angle to both the auto track AND the horse track before World of Outlaws return.  This is the best way I know to explain the discrepancy in the timing/scoring, and the visual evidence of the finish from Saturday night.  I'm 100% certain the order of finish is correct, and the the dicrepancy between the visual evidence and the electronic scoring has been resolved.  

 



racerguy6n
March 25, 2015 at 07:57:57 AM
Joined: 12/11/2004
Posts: 129
Reply

Thanis for taking the time to come on here and explain that. Much appreciated.





Post Reply
You must be logged in to Post a Message.
Not a member register Here.
Already registered? Please Login





If you have a website and would like to set up a forum here at HoseHeadForums.com
please contact us by using the contact link at the top of the page.

© 2024 HoseHeadForums.com Privacy Policy