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Topic: Engine question--302 Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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brian26
June 15, 2009 at 08:10:30 AM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply

Okay, I just bought a 327 chevy, small journal main, that's been rebuilt although it's been sitting for several years, cast pistons. I'm betting and hoping it's only been bored out to .030, but .060 shouldn't be too bad for cooling with this size should it?

I have a lead on some forged 327 pistons to replace those with as well as a set of 461 heads. I also have a set of VORTEC castings, and I hear those have better support for the lifters if I go with a roller cam. I want to get my car up to 7 grand rpms and still be safe without the engine being a grenade.

Also I have a 283 crank from 64-66. I'm expecting this to also be a small journal. Anybody sure?

 

What are my odds on a decent 302 out of this as a start? All told so far I should be just under $850 so far.

 

I'll be out this week away from a computer, chime in if you will and give me your thoughts please.

 

Brian

 

 





Sprint97
June 15, 2009 at 11:33:02 AM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply
This message was edited on June 15, 2009 at 11:34:38 AM by Sprint97
Reply to:
Posted By: brian26 on June 15 2009 at 08:10:30 AM

Okay, I just bought a 327 chevy, small journal main, that's been rebuilt although it's been sitting for several years, cast pistons. I'm betting and hoping it's only been bored out to .030, but .060 shouldn't be too bad for cooling with this size should it?

I have a lead on some forged 327 pistons to replace those with as well as a set of 461 heads. I also have a set of VORTEC castings, and I hear those have better support for the lifters if I go with a roller cam. I want to get my car up to 7 grand rpms and still be safe without the engine being a grenade.

Also I have a 283 crank from 64-66. I'm expecting this to also be a small journal. Anybody sure?

 

What are my odds on a decent 302 out of this as a start? All told so far I should be just under $850 so far.

 

I'll be out this week away from a computer, chime in if you will and give me your thoughts please.

 

Brian

 

 



Brian,...Chev small block produced 3 different bore sizes & 3 different main bearing sizes prior to 72. You need to mike the bore size & all of the crank journal sizes. If the engine you bought has never been raced, I would suggest having the crank journals polished for additional clearance for the high Small Block Chevy Engine Block IdentificationRPMs. I don't think it would make an difference which set of heads you use. I am trying to send a link for all of the measurements for cranks & blocks......Luther



brian26
June 15, 2009 at 12:08:01 PM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply

That is a ton of info I needed to get started! Thanks Luther





DGM 7620
June 15, 2009 at 02:17:50 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: brian26 on June 15 2009 at 08:10:30 AM

Okay, I just bought a 327 chevy, small journal main, that's been rebuilt although it's been sitting for several years, cast pistons. I'm betting and hoping it's only been bored out to .030, but .060 shouldn't be too bad for cooling with this size should it?

I have a lead on some forged 327 pistons to replace those with as well as a set of 461 heads. I also have a set of VORTEC castings, and I hear those have better support for the lifters if I go with a roller cam. I want to get my car up to 7 grand rpms and still be safe without the engine being a grenade.

Also I have a 283 crank from 64-66. I'm expecting this to also be a small journal. Anybody sure?

 

What are my odds on a decent 302 out of this as a start? All told so far I should be just under $850 so far.

 

I'll be out this week away from a computer, chime in if you will and give me your thoughts please.

 

Brian

 

 



Brian,

When I worked at Parson's in '74 he used a 327 SJ block with a 283 SJ crank w/327 HI-PO rods, TRW Forged Piston 11.5/1 compression piston, with 461 Heads a Z-28 Manifold and Holly carb, with a Delco dual point CD Distributor. I'm pretty confident he turned this motor about 7500 RPM.

I agree with Luther about polishing the crank, if you watch your clearences and have your oil system right you won't have any trouble. I would put older heads on instead of Vortec's, more period correct.

This pkg is about like anything else if you buy the right parts and do your machine work correct you won't have any problem spinning it 7000+ and making it live, Lord only knows how many of these type motor's were built and ran successfully!!!!!!!



Scotty1n
MyWebsite
June 15, 2009 at 02:44:40 PM
Joined: 11/08/2006
Posts: 71
Reply

Is this motor intended for a vintage car? Just my opinion but I feel a 327 spinning 6250-6500 rpm would be equal to or better than a 302 up there at 7000. Being somewhat conservitive it would be cheaper and last longer too. Also remember those hi-rpm motors are fun but in most of all our cars we sit with a spinning clutch and flywheel between our legs. Sure would ruin a Vintage show if one blew up. Just a thought.

Scotty



DGM 7620
June 15, 2009 at 10:11:30 PM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply

Brian,

We used to go to Scott Chevrolet and buy Z-28 short blocks and blue print them put a cam and set of heads on and go race, paid $500 for the short block, $50-$75 for the cam (from KAMS), have another$100-$150 in a pan & pump, $250 in roller rockers, $800-$1000 in heads, then another $500-$600 in intake,pushrods,lifters etc. Then another $350-$500 in carb & ign.so for around $2500 you could race all year if you took care of it well and had a competitive engine. Shit $2500 won't buy you the rods & crank now if your using anything decient!!!!

Those short blocks 4.00 bore x 3.00 stroke with pink rods & a 11.5 compression forged piston wasn't any thin rings or total seals, a flat tappet cam which usally was a regrind from Kams which usally used some version of a 505 Isky N or T series I believe. Mondello ported the heads and installed 1.94 or 2.02 valves. We would set the mains up at .003/.0035 clearence and the rods at the same, you really had to watch your rod side clearance, we usally went we .020 min on the pink rod. Those old pistons we would run .010 wall clearance cold, adjusted the compression by head gasket thickness as we used shim gaskets painted with HIGH HEAT SILVER. and on top the heads Crane Gold Rockers on 3/8 studs used to pin them at first until we started using screw in studs, still have my screw in stud tool that we used to do heads with. I didn't know what a 6" rod was, 1st after market rods the Old Man had were Hank the Cranks, then all kinds of Carillo rods, what we didn't understand then was how much lighter a pink rod was compared to Carrillo's




Sprint97
June 18, 2009 at 08:53:31 AM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply

DMG,...I did pretty much the same. Bought Corvette short blocks, clearenced the rods, mains & pistons. I used Isky Cam & roller tappets 62 - 65 and switched to Crower in 66 with roller tappets after that. Used neddle rockers and had either screw in or pinned studs. Torqed all rods, mains & heads +5 lbs over factory specs. Also used high temp aluminum paint on head gaskets. I ran Hilburn Injectors with alcohol and magneto. I never had any trouble with an engine that had been clearenced.

Chev was lax in the clearance. Our local banker bought a new Chev v8 station wagon and spun a main bearing with ordinary driving. ...Luther



DGM 7620
June 18, 2009 at 11:54:31 AM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Sprint97 on June 18 2009 at 08:53:31 AM

DMG,...I did pretty much the same. Bought Corvette short blocks, clearenced the rods, mains & pistons. I used Isky Cam & roller tappets 62 - 65 and switched to Crower in 66 with roller tappets after that. Used neddle rockers and had either screw in or pinned studs. Torqed all rods, mains & heads +5 lbs over factory specs. Also used high temp aluminum paint on head gaskets. I ran Hilburn Injectors with alcohol and magneto. I never had any trouble with an engine that had been clearenced.

Chev was lax in the clearance. Our local banker bought a new Chev v8 station wagon and spun a main bearing with ordinary driving. ...Luther



Luther,

What Isky grind did you guys use? If I remember right the Old Man torqued everything 5# over also. All I got to do during this time was chase and wash parts, this was in the early 70's In about '76 I built the first motor on my own it was a 327 SJ block with a 283 crank with stock 327 eye brow rods and a TRW piston, it ran about 4 laps and cooked a bearing. It tore up some stuff so I went down to the Old Mans shop and tried to bum some parts, it's funny now but it wasn't then I knew everything and I couldn't have done anything wrong, He asked me how much clearance I had on M & R's I told him the crank was turned .010 and I put .010 bearings in it, he asked if the crank was turned low or high, didn't mean nothing to me. He sent me packing without any parts (didn't want me breaking his stuff) That Old Fart let me sweat it out for about 2 years I would go begging and he would send me down the road!!!! Finally about '78 I started getting alittle bit of it straight and not blowing up every night and he started giving me some help, it's funny even today after he's gone I still learn stuff from him.

Your right about those chevy clearance's, we bought 5 327 shortblocks in '81 from Hudiburg Chevrolet, 2 of those you couldn't turn over with an 18" break over. When we cked them 1 had less then .0005 main clearance!!!!!!



Sprint97
June 18, 2009 at 05:33:46 PM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: DGM 7620 on June 18 2009 at 11:54:31 AM

Luther,

What Isky grind did you guys use? If I remember right the Old Man torqued everything 5# over also. All I got to do during this time was chase and wash parts, this was in the early 70's In about '76 I built the first motor on my own it was a 327 SJ block with a 283 crank with stock 327 eye brow rods and a TRW piston, it ran about 4 laps and cooked a bearing. It tore up some stuff so I went down to the Old Mans shop and tried to bum some parts, it's funny now but it wasn't then I knew everything and I couldn't have done anything wrong, He asked me how much clearance I had on M & R's I told him the crank was turned .010 and I put .010 bearings in it, he asked if the crank was turned low or high, didn't mean nothing to me. He sent me packing without any parts (didn't want me breaking his stuff) That Old Fart let me sweat it out for about 2 years I would go begging and he would send me down the road!!!! Finally about '78 I started getting alittle bit of it straight and not blowing up every night and he started giving me some help, it's funny even today after he's gone I still learn stuff from him.

Your right about those chevy clearance's, we bought 5 327 shortblocks in '81 from Hudiburg Chevrolet, 2 of those you couldn't turn over with an 18" break over. When we cked them 1 had less then .0005 main clearance!!!!!!



DGM,...The Isky cams I bought used and did not get a card with them and I don't know which ones they were. The Crower cams I purchased from the factory & received the ID cars with them. I don't remember what lift & duration they were either. Bruce Crower told me when I bought the first one that the serial number at the top of the car identified the set of templates that was used to grind the cam. If I liked the cam, order with that number. That is how I bought cams later from them. Ray Lee liked the performance after he started driving the #24 out of Linclon, NB he asked me if he could get the number. They started using the same grind in the #24 car.

The racing engines that I put together could be turned over by using both hands & turn the damper wheel. That was a short bloock before the heads & valve train were installed. ...Luther




helper monkey
June 18, 2009 at 11:26:26 PM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply

All small journal 283 cranks are forged steel (not cast) There were a few cast 283 cranks ('67), but if memory serves me, these were large journals as well, so there shouldn't be any confusion. If your crank is forged (no casting seam, rings like a bell when you tap it with a hammer), then it will drop into the block. IF you were to use a large journal 4" bore block, (basically a 350), you can still get spacers or special thick bearings and run that 4 x 3 bore and stroke that sings.

283 cranks are 3" stroke. 327 blocks are 4" bore. That's what it takes to make a 302. When we ran these, we were limited to boring the blocks .020" over to maintain a 305 CID limit. When blocks that could clean up at .020" became scarce, the rules allowed for .030 and then .040 overbores.

Also, the 327 pistons you've got won't work. The piston pin location will be too high and the pistons won't come to the top of the bore. You have to use 302 pistons.

You also have to be aware of rope style and neoprene style rear main seals when matching 283 cranks and 327 blocks. And none of these blocks, regardless of what anyone wants to believe were 4 bolt mains. You have to have a large journal block to get a factory 4 bolt main. Aftermarket main caps were installed on plenty of small journal blocks, and in reality are better than factory 4 bolt blocks (which were used in Hi Perf applications and heavy trucks) because the factory bolts are all 90 degrees from the cap parting line. Aftermarket caps could be obtained with angled outside bolts which help hold the cap laterally at high RPM.

We ran Isky rollers and Engle rollers. DO NOT paint Fel Pro blue teflon gaskets. If you are going to run steel gaskets (for the higher compression), then DO paint them. Factory performance engines generally came with two steel gaskets stacked (for clearance?). We would pull the heads and remove one of the gaskets, but then again, we didn't get too many factory performance engines.

Oil pressure is an overated thing. Chevys over oil. Run some clearance on the crank. If you are using an old set of vintage (even if they are aftermarket) pistons, you'll need to run up to .010" skirt clearance because of the amount of expansion from heat. You'll also end up running heavier oil and need to let the whole thing warm up to operating temp before spinning those high RPMs. If you buy new (modern designed) pistons with a high silicone content, they don't need as much skirt clearance because you won't have as much expansion due to temperature. This lets you run thinner oil which ultimately makes more horsepower at the crank because you aren't having to overcome the viscous friction from 50wt oil.

To keep the Chevy from pumping all the oil into the valve covers at high RPM, there are several fixes. The simple of which is restrictor plugs that are screwed into the lifter gallery plug holes. The most "vintage" fix is to stuff pipe cleaners into your pushrods to restrict the flow of oil to the rockers. There may be other fixes out there on the market now.

Many engine builders of the day would pull a freshly broken in engine apart because it was "still" holding more than 10 psi oil pressure when at operating temperature. Excess pressure is wasted horsepower. Hi volume is more important than hi pressure, BUT, a high volume pump pushing oil into the same (standard) oil clearance will generate higher pressure. You must open up the clearance to a higher volume to take advantage of the Hi Volume pump.

There. That's enough for now.

HM



DGM 7620
June 19, 2009 at 09:02:23 AM
Joined: 07/18/2007
Posts: 377
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: helper monkey on June 18 2009 at 11:26:26 PM

All small journal 283 cranks are forged steel (not cast) There were a few cast 283 cranks ('67), but if memory serves me, these were large journals as well, so there shouldn't be any confusion. If your crank is forged (no casting seam, rings like a bell when you tap it with a hammer), then it will drop into the block. IF you were to use a large journal 4" bore block, (basically a 350), you can still get spacers or special thick bearings and run that 4 x 3 bore and stroke that sings.

283 cranks are 3" stroke. 327 blocks are 4" bore. That's what it takes to make a 302. When we ran these, we were limited to boring the blocks .020" over to maintain a 305 CID limit. When blocks that could clean up at .020" became scarce, the rules allowed for .030 and then .040 overbores.

Also, the 327 pistons you've got won't work. The piston pin location will be too high and the pistons won't come to the top of the bore. You have to use 302 pistons.

You also have to be aware of rope style and neoprene style rear main seals when matching 283 cranks and 327 blocks. And none of these blocks, regardless of what anyone wants to believe were 4 bolt mains. You have to have a large journal block to get a factory 4 bolt main. Aftermarket main caps were installed on plenty of small journal blocks, and in reality are better than factory 4 bolt blocks (which were used in Hi Perf applications and heavy trucks) because the factory bolts are all 90 degrees from the cap parting line. Aftermarket caps could be obtained with angled outside bolts which help hold the cap laterally at high RPM.

We ran Isky rollers and Engle rollers. DO NOT paint Fel Pro blue teflon gaskets. If you are going to run steel gaskets (for the higher compression), then DO paint them. Factory performance engines generally came with two steel gaskets stacked (for clearance?). We would pull the heads and remove one of the gaskets, but then again, we didn't get too many factory performance engines.

Oil pressure is an overated thing. Chevys over oil. Run some clearance on the crank. If you are using an old set of vintage (even if they are aftermarket) pistons, you'll need to run up to .010" skirt clearance because of the amount of expansion from heat. You'll also end up running heavier oil and need to let the whole thing warm up to operating temp before spinning those high RPMs. If you buy new (modern designed) pistons with a high silicone content, they don't need as much skirt clearance because you won't have as much expansion due to temperature. This lets you run thinner oil which ultimately makes more horsepower at the crank because you aren't having to overcome the viscous friction from 50wt oil.

To keep the Chevy from pumping all the oil into the valve covers at high RPM, there are several fixes. The simple of which is restrictor plugs that are screwed into the lifter gallery plug holes. The most "vintage" fix is to stuff pipe cleaners into your pushrods to restrict the flow of oil to the rockers. There may be other fixes out there on the market now.

Many engine builders of the day would pull a freshly broken in engine apart because it was "still" holding more than 10 psi oil pressure when at operating temperature. Excess pressure is wasted horsepower. Hi volume is more important than hi pressure, BUT, a high volume pump pushing oil into the same (standard) oil clearance will generate higher pressure. You must open up the clearance to a higher volume to take advantage of the Hi Volume pump.

There. That's enough for now.

HM



HM,

I can't believe you brought up those damn pipe cleaners, I had forgot about those damn things, we used to use them in the old 230/250 6 cyl. chevys also. I've poked many a hole in my finger pushing and twisting them in, I don't know if we used the right size, on one 230 we blued the end of the pushrods and punched a couple through the stock rockers.

We used to run Isky's & Engles also and today still run a version of the RK-38 in DJ's motor. Now I don't know if it was right or not but a couple of times I have painted those Fel-Pro gaskets with dull alumninum paint when I've had to reuse them and had no problem, at the bowl in '87 was the last time and we ran 3rd, didn't pull that head off for another 4 races as it was the 1st time we had a chance to work on it.

You have some good info here, isn't it amazing how we just matched all these parts up out of differant engines to get what we needed, used to go down to Simms or to the salvage and get motors and piece all of it together, 1 of The Old Man's best SS/BB was built out of a 400 block that we took out of a customers Station Wagon, it had a cast 327 crank in RHS spacer bearings, those 327 steel cranks wouldn't make a night and would break the cast one's would make about 6 nights.



Sprint97
June 19, 2009 at 10:51:14 AM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: helper monkey on June 18 2009 at 11:26:26 PM

All small journal 283 cranks are forged steel (not cast) There were a few cast 283 cranks ('67), but if memory serves me, these were large journals as well, so there shouldn't be any confusion. If your crank is forged (no casting seam, rings like a bell when you tap it with a hammer), then it will drop into the block. IF you were to use a large journal 4" bore block, (basically a 350), you can still get spacers or special thick bearings and run that 4 x 3 bore and stroke that sings.

283 cranks are 3" stroke. 327 blocks are 4" bore. That's what it takes to make a 302. When we ran these, we were limited to boring the blocks .020" over to maintain a 305 CID limit. When blocks that could clean up at .020" became scarce, the rules allowed for .030 and then .040 overbores.

Also, the 327 pistons you've got won't work. The piston pin location will be too high and the pistons won't come to the top of the bore. You have to use 302 pistons.

You also have to be aware of rope style and neoprene style rear main seals when matching 283 cranks and 327 blocks. And none of these blocks, regardless of what anyone wants to believe were 4 bolt mains. You have to have a large journal block to get a factory 4 bolt main. Aftermarket main caps were installed on plenty of small journal blocks, and in reality are better than factory 4 bolt blocks (which were used in Hi Perf applications and heavy trucks) because the factory bolts are all 90 degrees from the cap parting line. Aftermarket caps could be obtained with angled outside bolts which help hold the cap laterally at high RPM.

We ran Isky rollers and Engle rollers. DO NOT paint Fel Pro blue teflon gaskets. If you are going to run steel gaskets (for the higher compression), then DO paint them. Factory performance engines generally came with two steel gaskets stacked (for clearance?). We would pull the heads and remove one of the gaskets, but then again, we didn't get too many factory performance engines.

Oil pressure is an overated thing. Chevys over oil. Run some clearance on the crank. If you are using an old set of vintage (even if they are aftermarket) pistons, you'll need to run up to .010" skirt clearance because of the amount of expansion from heat. You'll also end up running heavier oil and need to let the whole thing warm up to operating temp before spinning those high RPMs. If you buy new (modern designed) pistons with a high silicone content, they don't need as much skirt clearance because you won't have as much expansion due to temperature. This lets you run thinner oil which ultimately makes more horsepower at the crank because you aren't having to overcome the viscous friction from 50wt oil.

To keep the Chevy from pumping all the oil into the valve covers at high RPM, there are several fixes. The simple of which is restrictor plugs that are screwed into the lifter gallery plug holes. The most "vintage" fix is to stuff pipe cleaners into your pushrods to restrict the flow of oil to the rockers. There may be other fixes out there on the market now.

Many engine builders of the day would pull a freshly broken in engine apart because it was "still" holding more than 10 psi oil pressure when at operating temperature. Excess pressure is wasted horsepower. Hi volume is more important than hi pressure, BUT, a high volume pump pushing oil into the same (standard) oil clearance will generate higher pressure. You must open up the clearance to a higher volume to take advantage of the Hi Volume pump.

There. That's enough for now.

HM



HMJ, I pretty much stayed with the stock Corvette stuff. I bought a 364 cu in short block from Al Weiland in 65 or 66 & only freshend it up several times. Also bought a 302 from Al in 1968. I only ran it in IMCA daytime shows because they were usually dusty. I had it in the ncar #8 when Dick Sutcliffe won the IMCA fair date in OKC in Oct 69. I sold the car 2 weeks later & gave the buyer a choice of it or the 364. He chose the one that was in the car. I did build 1 364 using the large crank & offset/turned it to the samll rods. Reynolds Automotive in Emporia, KS did the machine work. He also chromed one crank for me.

What chev sb came with the end of the crank driller 7/16 sae threads? I had some like that & drilled & taped a couple. I lost a damper in 63 & always ran the studs w/washers after that. I ran a belt from damper to waterpump without a fan. I ran a belt driven fuel pump on Hilburn Inj and the belt ran from a double lower pully. I never broke any crankshafts.

Luther




helper monkey
June 19, 2009 at 08:26:02 PM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: DGM 7620 on June 19 2009 at 09:02:23 AM

HM,

I can't believe you brought up those damn pipe cleaners, I had forgot about those damn things, we used to use them in the old 230/250 6 cyl. chevys also. I've poked many a hole in my finger pushing and twisting them in, I don't know if we used the right size, on one 230 we blued the end of the pushrods and punched a couple through the stock rockers.

We used to run Isky's & Engles also and today still run a version of the RK-38 in DJ's motor. Now I don't know if it was right or not but a couple of times I have painted those Fel-Pro gaskets with dull alumninum paint when I've had to reuse them and had no problem, at the bowl in '87 was the last time and we ran 3rd, didn't pull that head off for another 4 races as it was the 1st time we had a chance to work on it.

You have some good info here, isn't it amazing how we just matched all these parts up out of differant engines to get what we needed, used to go down to Simms or to the salvage and get motors and piece all of it together, 1 of The Old Man's best SS/BB was built out of a 400 block that we took out of a customers Station Wagon, it had a cast 327 crank in RHS spacer bearings, those 327 steel cranks wouldn't make a night and would break the cast one's would make about 6 nights.



"Now I don't know if it was right or not but a couple of times I have painted those Fel-Pro gaskets with dull alumninum paint when I've had to reuse them and had no problem, at the bowl in '87 was the last time and we ran 3rd, didn't pull that head off for another 4 races as it was the 1st time we had a chance to work on it."

Forgive me for saying DON'T.

To atone, let me quote the Great Jan, who was gracing Fairgrounds Speedway (I will never acknowledge State Fair Speedway) on Friday night. At the driver's meeting, many of the locals were trying to pick Jan's brain about setups, techniques and styles and Jan replied, "Fellas remember, piss runs down hill. If it works, do it."

I've tried to shape my life around these sage words of advice.

HM



helper monkey
June 19, 2009 at 11:42:54 PM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: Sprint97 on June 19 2009 at 10:51:14 AM

HMJ, I pretty much stayed with the stock Corvette stuff. I bought a 364 cu in short block from Al Weiland in 65 or 66 & only freshend it up several times. Also bought a 302 from Al in 1968. I only ran it in IMCA daytime shows because they were usually dusty. I had it in the ncar #8 when Dick Sutcliffe won the IMCA fair date in OKC in Oct 69. I sold the car 2 weeks later & gave the buyer a choice of it or the 364. He chose the one that was in the car. I did build 1 364 using the large crank & offset/turned it to the samll rods. Reynolds Automotive in Emporia, KS did the machine work. He also chromed one crank for me.

What chev sb came with the end of the crank driller 7/16 sae threads? I had some like that & drilled & taped a couple. I lost a damper in 63 & always ran the studs w/washers after that. I ran a belt from damper to waterpump without a fan. I ran a belt driven fuel pump on Hilburn Inj and the belt ran from a double lower pully. I never broke any crankshafts.

Luther



I never encountered a small journal crank that was drilled and tapped for a balancer bolt from the factory. But then again, we couldn't afford Cor-vair parts, much less Cor-vette.

I can only imagine that it was maybe a marine application that required something be bolted onto the front of the crank? In any case, we found drilling the snout for a balancer bolt to be quite beneficial. Pressed on balancers didn't stay put.

305 being the cubic inch limit in Oklahoma City precluded anybody from offset grinding the crank for dirt. But plenty of them were built for the strip.

Marketing is a funny thing. Chevy marketed the 4"x3" small block as a 302, but prior to its factory launch in '69, all the 4"x3" Chevys built in the machine shop were refered to as 301s. Look back at an old Hot Rod Magazine and you'll see that everyone was building a 301. If they really when to the limit, they stroked that baby out to 3 1/2" and called it a 352, which mathematically was what it was. I guess when Chevy actuallly decided to go that long with the stroke, they didn't want to use 352 CID since Ford had used it previously in the venerable old FE engine that later became a 390/406/427. I always assumed that was the reason that the 350 was a 4" bore and a 3.48" stroke, to maintain that marketably pretty number, "350".

How did you get to 364? 0.060" over and a 3 1/2" crank? That comes up to about 363?

Good stuff.

HM



Sprint97
June 20, 2009 at 09:04:42 AM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: helper monkey on June 19 2009 at 11:42:54 PM

I never encountered a small journal crank that was drilled and tapped for a balancer bolt from the factory. But then again, we couldn't afford Cor-vair parts, much less Cor-vette.

I can only imagine that it was maybe a marine application that required something be bolted onto the front of the crank? In any case, we found drilling the snout for a balancer bolt to be quite beneficial. Pressed on balancers didn't stay put.

305 being the cubic inch limit in Oklahoma City precluded anybody from offset grinding the crank for dirt. But plenty of them were built for the strip.

Marketing is a funny thing. Chevy marketed the 4"x3" small block as a 302, but prior to its factory launch in '69, all the 4"x3" Chevys built in the machine shop were refered to as 301s. Look back at an old Hot Rod Magazine and you'll see that everyone was building a 301. If they really when to the limit, they stroked that baby out to 3 1/2" and called it a 352, which mathematically was what it was. I guess when Chevy actuallly decided to go that long with the stroke, they didn't want to use 352 CID since Ford had used it previously in the venerable old FE engine that later became a 390/406/427. I always assumed that was the reason that the 350 was a 4" bore and a 3.48" stroke, to maintain that marketably pretty number, "350".

How did you get to 364? 0.060" over and a 3 1/2" crank? That comes up to about 363?

Good stuff.

HM



HM, It must have been a 363. We were never checked on cubic inches at anyplace I ran. Also never checked fuel either. I only added nitro a few times & for qualifying only. Ten percent max. ,..Luther




helper monkey
June 20, 2009 at 11:14:47 AM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as calling you out on the numbers, I was really just wanting to understand how far you were pushing the envelope. 0.060" over in the world of thin wall casting and half an inch stroker are pretty impressive.

That's what was fun about those days. Taking junkyard stuff and turning it into racetrack gold. Today, you just call an engine builder and tell them what you want. They BUY a special cast block (aluminum or iron depending on your rules) and a billet crank of whatever stroke is allowed and then proceed to BUY all the components needed to meet the rules of your class.

We got to think and try different crazy ideas like pipe cleaners in pushrods, 180 degree cranks and de-siamesed ports. Today everything is store bought. If you've got the wallet, you can BUY the same stuff Schatz and Kinser have.

But in the words of the great Troy Matchen, when he sold his '69 championship car, "He may have bought the car, but he didn't buy all those laps."

HM



brian26
June 25, 2009 at 10:56:22 AM
Joined: 12/03/2006
Posts: 7918
Reply

For anybody looking at the direction of building a 302, this is the place to look first. You guys have really made it a little easier for those of us trying to learn. I've always been a chassis guy, thinking the engine stuff would have to be faced someday.My skills do not indicate that I am ready to run it at 7,500 rpm, But I do want to be ready to push the car a bit harder than I have been. This combo is something intended for my skills and program to grow into. The engine came easy, the pieces came easy, so the execution phase is far along already.

 

Since there is no reverse in the car right now due to setup, I'll be going with a mini-clutch and automatic flywheel.

I just got the 283(advertised as 64-66 on E-bah) crank in from UPS and have set it back. I may not have it ready until next year since I am trying to get back in sync with this past year.I'll be checking the numbers and gathering pieces just as I have been doing. Sounds to me like it is going to be a teardown and inspection with a general cleanup. Then going to forged or maybe even hypertuectic pistons with a decent set of valvesprings. Of course crank clearance and polishing will be mandatory, and I will be looking into a set of pink rods for sure.

With the stress of breaking track records out of the way, or winning exhibition features, I think a 283-302-327 area is the next for me. I'd love to get a crate 350 , but I have the habit of buying pieces and putting things together. If I had the moolah to drop in a ready to go engine I'd do it, but green paper is short at the moment.




Sprint97
June 25, 2009 at 04:20:19 PM
Joined: 03/19/2007
Posts: 253
Reply
This message was edited on June 25, 2009 at 04:23:51 PM by Sprint97
Reply to:
Posted By: brian26 on June 25 2009 at 10:56:22 AM

For anybody looking at the direction of building a 302, this is the place to look first. You guys have really made it a little easier for those of us trying to learn. I've always been a chassis guy, thinking the engine stuff would have to be faced someday.My skills do not indicate that I am ready to run it at 7,500 rpm, But I do want to be ready to push the car a bit harder than I have been. This combo is something intended for my skills and program to grow into. The engine came easy, the pieces came easy, so the execution phase is far along already.

 

Since there is no reverse in the car right now due to setup, I'll be going with a mini-clutch and automatic flywheel.

I just got the 283(advertised as 64-66 on E-bah) crank in from UPS and have set it back. I may not have it ready until next year since I am trying to get back in sync with this past year.I'll be checking the numbers and gathering pieces just as I have been doing. Sounds to me like it is going to be a teardown and inspection with a general cleanup. Then going to forged or maybe even hypertuectic pistons with a decent set of valvesprings. Of course crank clearance and polishing will be mandatory, and I will be looking into a set of pink rods for sure.

With the stress of breaking track records out of the way, or winning exhibition features, I think a 283-302-327 area is the next for me. I'd love to get a crate 350 , but I have the habit of buying pieces and putting things together. If I had the moolah to drop in a ready to go engine I'd do it, but green paper is short at the moment.



Brian,...Sounds like you have a plan. Tear down, inspect & clean up and the polishing of the crank. For an economical approach, I would suggest you also pin the valve rocker studs. You can go to a hardware store & purchase 1/8 inch expansion pins at the length you need and purchase a new 1/8 in bit to do the job. Very inexpensive & may save some engine damage. PS You may need more than one bit !!... You will get more satisfaction from building your own engine......Luther




txracinfireman
June 25, 2009 at 07:02:27 PM
Joined: 09/30/2008
Posts: 74
Reply

Brian,

Pinning the studs is a good cheap, old way to do it! Of course , if you wanted to spend the money, I personally prefer screw in studs. But the pinning works well.



helper monkey
June 25, 2009 at 09:41:53 PM
Joined: 06/10/2007
Posts: 101
Reply

Pinning works. Screw in studs allow for pushrod guide plates, although Mr Gasket made some pushrod guide plates that attached under the head bolts. There are two kinds of screw in studs. The hex nutted type require you to cut the stud boss down the amount of the hex (and guide plate). There are repair type studs that don't have the hex nut and don't require the bosses to be cut down. Can't use guide plates, but they won't pull out. Loctite them in place to seal and lock the threads because in some later modeled heads, the stud hole goes to water.

I think genuine "Pink" rods were all large journal. Genuine Z28 302s were large journal. Totally unnecessary. If you have one, sell it and use the proceeds to build two engines.

Stock rods with the beams properly polished and a good set of racing rod bolts will keep them together. Small journal rod bolts are 11/32". Large journal rod bolts are 3/8". You can drill small journal rods and caps out for the 3/8" bolt, but I don't ever recall breaking a stock sized racing rod bolt on a small journal. The lighter your piston and rod assemblies, the higher you can rev and keep things alive.

If you have the crank ground, ask the grinder to put a larger fillet radius than stock for strength. Your going to run looser side clearances on the rods and this will help keep the crank from breaking. Our experience is that it isn't the high revs that break things, it is how abrupt the engine will unload. 194 six cylinder cranks were stroked 1/2" to make 250s. When matched up with a torque converterless Powerglide, the rev up was tremendous (7000 - 8000 rpm with a straight six!). You could definitely run it into the corner deeper. The problem was that when you let off, the engine slowed so fast that you'd yank a rod in two or break a crank. I know that lightness cost money, but THINK LIGHT.

One thing I forgot about is that with most 283s, you can bore them the 1/8" needed to make a 4" bore for a 302. That keeps you from scrounging for an old 327. Some 283s can go the additional 0.020" to the limit we used to run in the city. NONE THAT I EVER TRIED TO RUN could go 0.030" without exploding down the front straightaway in Lawton.

HM





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