Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

Lets start over here, I'm tired of flipping pages,

By the way, Please read my answer in page six-Lap one. I believe this is what many of us wingless fans want to say.

Brian, I am sorry, but the good ol' days are gone, period end of story. Not just in sprint car racing but in all forms of sport and we no longer have dinosaurs either.

I used to be a hockey fanatic, loved it played with emotion and the rougher the better, the Flyers of the early 70's were my team and I ventured out to see them play in a half dozen different arenas. Now the letters NHL stand for No Hit League and the game is played by figure skating robots. The same holds true with the NFL, you can't touch the quarterback anymore and baseball plays a half dozen different pitchers in almost every game, per team, arghhhhh. People want speed, they think faster is better and my analogy fits with all those sports as well. Stay at home defensemen, linebackers like Butkus and pitchers that threw in the 80's but had finesse, that was the way things were forever it seemed, then suddenly it's today. Things evolve and not always for the best, the most important thing we have left is our own memories, sad as that seems.

For the most part the traditional sprint car has been replaced by a more popular, faster, version. The fans for the most part have aligned themselves with the winged way of life and this is shown not only in attendance but the lack of non-wing racing country wide. IN, CA and a bit in AZ is all that's left and who knows where USAC is anymore? They certainly haven't helped the cause over the years, I think everyone knows that and they most certainly aren't aiding it with that new stupid Champ Car.

While I am old school, I prefer the wings and I've seen enough of both to make a fair judgment. I have seen many good examples of both and a good race is a good race, winged or without, even Spridge would agree there, it happens. We are aligned though, we both think it was better in the good ol' days, so to speak. C'est la vie, Take It Easy....

MSPN-

I agree on most fronts, only I would compare winged sprint cars to something like "arena football." It's sorta like something that appeals to the fan who isn't the most informed, and wants to just see speed(or scoring) and get drunk. The problem is that sprint car racing didn't have the fanbase of football, nor did it have the ability to sustain it.

When I go to a winged race, the amount of people I see who are your "NASCAR-type" fans or who are there just for the party is overwhelming. Unfortunately, those fans do not cross over well to other forms for various reasons. I can tell you that the inability to see the cars as well without the wings(especially when alcohol is involved) definitely adds to this. Let's be honest - outside of places like Knoxville and Pennsylvania, sprint cars rely on this type of spectator, and the winged variety is much more attractive in that arena....

Now, here's hoping I can find a way to Tulare for next weekend! haha

Spridge, son you are way too smart to say something that stupid, sheesh!

Non-winged racing is your arena football, almost non existant, compared to the dozens and dozens of winged races which is is vastly in the majority ala the NFL.

You want to get honest, how many places have you been to winged races? How many times in those two that you mentioned, Knoxville and PA, lol?

You were brought up as a non-wing fan thanks to your Dad and he did a great job but don't get too smug because the word dinosaur is never far from any conversation with non-winged racing these days. I worked at I-96 in MI years ago when a two day USAC midget and sprint show about put the promoter out of business. They haven't drawn in years and that's why there are only a few small pockets left, that's the reality of the beast. For the most part they are still available for the small buck operator and Gas City is still a treasure, but there are few of those in existance and the horizon isn't getting any brighter I'm guessing.

In closing to say that winged races are simply parties or places to get drunk makes as much sense as me saying that the non-wing shows are like modifieds racing side by side slightly faster, which is not far from the truth on many nights I've seen them. Oldtimers and old school, of which I am part of, is much more the norm for your choice of sprint cars but what's gonna happen when us old farts go racin' to the grave? Without a lot of new and young blood in the sport you end up right where you are now, about nowhere.

If this hasn't got a rise I can always go back to something I've talked to you about in person a few times. Why does the winged guy get into a non-wing car and spank the rest so often? Ricky Stenhouse being the latest example. It certainly shoots the silly theory of the driver is so important in the traditional sprinter. I've always said, if you learn how to go fast first, it's pretty easy to slow down a bunch. Hope school is going well, all the best, Take It Easy....

MSPN; I'ld be interested in hearing your theory as to why those racers whose background is predominatly non-winged transfer more successfully to the big bucks league (NASCAR).

Asphalt........

Because they slow down even more in NASCAR. Not physically but mentally. Allot less going on during a one minute lap at daytona than a 10 second lap at any quarter mile.

Using your theory then drag racers should excell in sprint cars; quarter mile in 4.5 seconds as opposed to 10.

Brian, I'm not sure that more than a few got it. When Kaeding knocked down the walls on both ends of Manzy last year ,but himself. I thought that guy would not last a season in 1960. That was the year Aj won his first big car race at DuQuoin, 19 years after winning his first midget main event and still some years before cages. I know,different time and bla,bla bla. The real good ones in any era have one thing in common,they may scare the shit out of the guy next to them (Vogler) and be disliked throughly,(Foyt) or both.Those guys did not get er upside down that often and had "IT"..Once in awhile we still see "IT" and I still see it in flashes but NASCAR took some of the best of it. For me the first sign of it is when that elbow goes up hauling into a turn of a fast 1/2 mile dirt track and it never comes down,steering with the gas and the seat of his pant's and you can only do that without a wing. It's a true art.

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

The analogy is not to mean winged sprint car racing is less popular(like arena football)....it is to signify that the exhiliaration of the cars is what draws the fans. There are a lot more casual fans at winged races(which makes up just a portion of the added attendance as compared to wingless races), and they would mostly attend for the event, and not necessarily the race. Those are the types that are there for the speed, and yes, the party. That, as you so duly noted, is a major part of the "younger crowd" at the winged races. I see it myself - people I know from my hometown do not want to go to USAC races because it is not near the event, and the post-race festivities are not there.

I went to about ten tracks to watch winged sprint cars last year. I've been to Pennsylvania(Grove, Lincoln, Port Royal, Lernerville, etc.) and Knoxville. Next question.

I see winged sprint car racers translate to the type without from time-to-time, often on big tracks, and often on slick and/or rubbering tracks. Ricky did a helluva job at Manzanita, and used his expertise on a rubbering race track to go to victory. I have also seen many of these "world-beaters" go to short and/or tacky tracks and struggle. That's what wingless sprint car racing is all about - running them on the edge on a well-prepared track. Some guys stick it out and become contenders on those tracks, too, but that's rare. Luckily, my job lets me identify who can drive no matter what they're racing - and don't let it surprise you that young Ricky is racing without the wing these days. Don't think that's just by chance(for guys like Jesse Hockett, either).

I really like this debate, mainly because there are so few people who get the chance to see both forms at their best. I really look forward to seeing a heavy dose of both this year, and I'm still hoping to put together a way to Tulare, especially after all the great things I've heard about that place....

speed219 - If drag racing was in a circle I would agree with you. As it is drag racing is sort of like qualifying time after time. Not much "racing" going on there either. And please don't read into that as saying they don't have their hands full with controling the car in a straight line.

Having said that though there have been a few drag racers that have tried their hands at midgets.

I wonder how many weekly, winged 410 tracks there are these days? Because it seems to me that THEY are they dying breed and will soon be the dinosaurs.

I think Spridge hit the nail on the head about the difference in fans from winged and nonwinged. The typical USAC fan seems to be "in touch" with the sport more than 95% of the fans attending a WoO race. I don't know why, but one only needs to sit in the stands to see that it is painfully true.

Everything in life comes full circle at one point in time or another. I never thought I would see bell bottom jeans, hip huggers and the big goofy sunglasses make a comeback, but they have. Just like nonwing sprint car racing is enjoying a resurgance.

It's not about which drivers can switch from one type of car to the other and succeed, a good race car driver is a good race car driver and will be fast in anything he drives. Just as I have seen guys like Travis Rilat take the wing off and hand it to some of the big shoes, I also saw Tony Stewart jump in a winged 360 for the very first time on a 1/2 mile and SPANK one of the best 360 racers in the country at one of his home tracks.

BIGFISH said it best... "For me the first sign of it is when that elbow goes up hauling into a turn of a fast 1/2 mile dirt track and it never comes down,steering with the gas and the seat of his pant's and you can only do that without a wing. It's a true art."

Member of this message board since 1997

Spridge, nice response, that's the kid I know.

It wasn't too long ago I had to about kidnap you to get to a W of O race at Eldora and you were very anti-wing racing at that time and you didn't go hardly at all. Was it because Jim had the keys and you didn't have a license and not that you have wheels you are hitting more of them, I hope so. Hope to see you somewhere this year, let me know how school and things are some time in an email.

Hawker, bell bottom jeans might be big in your area but that may be because they're still stuck in the 60's there. There might not be much partying at the non-wing shows but that's because nobody is there when compared to the crowds at most winged shows.

Winged 410 racing has been dying for years and it's all about the money, even you should know that. It has certainly been replaced with 360 racing in many places, like it or not. There are also many more touring groups around these days than in the past so I think you're dead wrong on the winged thiing fading, not surprised you took that side either, lol. What do your employers think of your thoughts about racing these days, the anti Dirt stuff, the anti winged views, man it might be awhile before you're the employee of the month methinks.

It might be a true art to quote your last sentance but it is one that's fading quickly, c'est la vie. Take It Easy.....

Jesse Hockett, I'm glad you brought him up. The first time I saw him at Manzy I said ,who in the hell is that! He stood out like a sore thumb in the Hot lap session and when I found out he was,I think just 23 last year ? I knew he would not be just another guy running in the middle of the pack. I'm willing to bet that if I had seen him at a winged show that during that hot lap session I would have never been able to see the kind of potential that boy has right off the bat, never. The knowledgeable traditional sprintcar fan knows exactly what I'm talking about. The rest of you, enjoy the show.

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

Mike-

My dad has been around the block a time or two. He actually enjoyed winged shows for a while, it seems, but his interest waned in recent years. He has never discouraged me from going to winged shows, however, even when I was hitching a ride from CoachBob to go! haha

His patience can't make it through heat races at a winged show, anymore. Unfortunately, the heat races are usually so bad at winged shows that he is soured before the main even comes onto the track.

What is your e-mail address these days? Shoot me one at [email protected] whenever you're coming to a race again. I won't be making the Outlaws show up in your land(it's against Belleville Midget week), so you're gonna have to come down my way to cross paths. Stay warm...

Actually, the bell bottoms made a comeback about 7 or 8 years ago believe it or not.

Every nonwing race I have been to the last few years have had great crowds. It also sounded like the Copper was packed last week. If I were a betting man, I would say that the promotors of the Copper pocketed more money than the Volusia race, but that is speculation.

You have been around the winged 410 guys. Have you ever asked their opinion of Emmitt Hahn? I know a few team owners and crew chiefs, and I've asked them and I have never heard a favorable comment from ANY of them. Many of them blame him alone for killing 410 racing (but that's another thread).

As far as my employer regarding my opinion of DIRT. I could really care less what ANYONE thinks. It is my opinion and if they don't like it, then find somebody else, it doesn't make a rats ass to me. I CAN tell you this though, the previous owner pretty much shared the same thoughts as I on the issue. Not sure on the new owners. Where are my anti winged posts? If you would go back and look at the original thread, you would see where I have said that I like all forms of sprints and midgets (except for the new "ugly" cars), I just believe that the nonwing racing is more competative and exciting. There is no need for you to try to spin it into something it isn't.

Member of this message board since 1997

" It also sounded like the Copper was packed last week."

It was and with 130 cars they did just fine at the back gate too. Next year it will be even better!

Half the lies they tell about me aren't true. 

Some good points in this thread.

Something I would like to bring up is that the last four Ultimate Challenges' at Osky, a race that is as much a winged vs. wingless race as any out there were won by racers who primarily raced wingless. Boston Reid in 03, Dickie Gaines in 04, Levi Jones in 05 and Jerry Coons Jr. in 06. Another one that some seem to forget was the Big M Motorfest USAC vs. Sprint Bandit show at Memphis three years ago. Josh Wise won over Kruseman (the fastest car that night IMO) and Shane Stewart who looked good in his first wingless foray.

Yes some winged guys have beaten some of the wingless bunch at their own game before but not all the time.

I saw an assortment of nonwing, winged 410s and winged 360s last year, and I think probably the most important thing to determine the quality of racing is the track condition. Nonwing cars suck on a rubber down track just as badly as winged cars do. On the other hand, both types of cars can put on a great show on a properly prepared track. With equal conditions to compare, the nonwing cars are probably more exciting for purists, racing on the edge usually in larger packs than the winged cars. But as mentioned, casual fans find the winged cars more appealing.

Bigfish - For the record, Jesse Hockett is quite exciting in a winged car also.

Tired of the cold and snow here...