Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

I know this is a sprint forum so please don't remind me. But looking at the WoO LMS points I see Brandon Sheppard has averaged $10,500 on 8 starts. He has won 6. Brad Sweet is averaging under $4000 on 11 starts. It appears from the North Pole here, that the sprints are the WRG premiere division.  That combined with the full coast to coast schedule and its expense I wonder why there seems to be more money available to the LMS. With the longer schedule, longer travel distances and national schedule shouldn't the Sprints be paid more simply based on expense? I am assuming the car costs are similar.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

A number of things here. I don’t think they are considered premier necessarily.  Maybe they are or not.  I don’t know and I don’t think anybody from the Worof Racing Group has ever tiered their own series IE sprints, late models, super modifieds etc.  It’s another division and that’s what it is that has to support its own funding through sponsorships, tv deal, and so on.  

Somethings also to consider. The California swing particularly in the spring doesn’t have a lot of high paying shows. Second, Brad has only won one race.  Brandon quite honestly has been kicking ass (won 6 outta 8 so far). Most of the shows on both the sprint and late model side are top end heavy as far as pay goes. A more fair comparison would be comparing Brad Sweet to Darrell Lanigan. Darrell is minus the win but has been super consistent. So let’s bump his winnings to $30,000 to simulate he’s won a race like Brad.  Right there the math works out like this. $30,000/8=$3750 a night for Darrell.  Where as Brad is making $42350/11=$3850.

Not sure if your post was a troll post or legit but its honestly pretty easy to look at once you factor all the particulars in. 

I don't follow the WOOLMS almost at all, so I'm curious why they only have 8 events in but have ran 10 nights. Maybe they do show-up points and don't officially count the first night of two night shows? I also can't get his total money won to add up to $84K like they have, but maybe he won a bonus for sweeping Volusia or something. Regardless, if you factor his total feature money won over 10 nights of racing, it falls to $7,820. 

The wins still set it apart, plus he had a $15K win over the weekend so that pushes it up a bit. If you compare a normal one-night WoO Sprint vs WoO LM race purse, it typically looks like they both pay $10K to win but the sprints pay more per position throughout the field. That's what a quick glance tells me anyways, might be wrong but too early in the morning to confirm. 

Late Models are a decent support class if Nonwing Sprints, 360 Sprints, or 305 Sprints are not available. 

Also, if you combine WoO and LOLMS for the Late Models you would have a lot of more opportunities, but if you were just putting the two WoO series against one another...the Sprints win hands down in terms of total possible $.

There are a lot more full-blown Late Models in the country than their are 410 Sprint Cars, but outside of a few places where late models are top dog, in traveling around the country, Sprints draw more people than Late Models do.  And as far as the Crown Jewels go.  Although Late Models have a lot of big races throughout the year, not even the World 100 gets close ot the national prestige and attention that the Knoxville Nationals has.

Showing top-10 in points and money earnings alone isn't an apples-to-apples comparison either. This takes zero account for guys like Reutzal, Shaffer, Brown, and Cali & PA locals who routinely finish top 10, taking purse money away from WoO regulars you've included. So your logic is flawed... Non-WoO members earning purse money doesn't decrease the average payout

Maybe I'm just uninformed because the only time I follow late model racing is when I head to Charlotte for World Finals... but I don't believe this is exactly the case with WoO Late models. For the most part WoO stick to the WoO schedule and Lucas Oil stick to the Lucas Oil schedule... right? I also don't think theres nearly as many quality "local" late model teams that can compete with the top series from week to week. Once again I might be wrong about this because I'm from Northern Ohio where 410 sprints are king.

But if you want an apples-to-apples comparison you'd need to take total earnings divided by total races, not just the top 10.

When it comes to payout for normal $10k-to-win races:

WoO Sprint

1. $10,000

2. $5,500

3. $3,200

4. $2,800

5. $2,500

6. $2,300

7. $2,200

8. $2,100

9. $2,050

10. $2,000

11. $1,500

12. $1,200

13. $1,100

14. $1,050

15. $1,000

16. $900

17 on back. $800

Assuming 24 cars = $46,750 total

WoO Late Models

1. $10,000

2. $5,000

3. $3,000

4. $2,500

5. $2,000

6. $1,700

7. $1,400

8. $1,300

9. $1,200

10. $1,100

11. $1,050

12. $1,000

13. $950

14. $900

15. $850

16. $800

17. $770

18. $750

19. $730

20 on back. $700

Assuming 24 cars = $40,500 total

Based on this a WoO sprint car race on average is the better paying race... While it seems WoO Late Models race for $12k and $15k more often (relatively), both series have their crown jewel races. With sprint cars having the longer season (w/ more high paying races), I believe if someone took the time they'd find the sprints on average have the better payout.

EDIT: I was to find this answer much faster than I initially thought. I was able to copy the earnings from 2018 standings for sprint and LMs to an excel spreadsheet...

WoO Sprint total payout = $4,257,450 / 71 races = $59,964 per race

WoO Late Model total payout = $2,743,231 / 40 races = $68,581 per race

So in conclusion, "Congratulations. You accidentally got that right, you **also** just didn't find the right evidence to support your argument. You're welcome!" (;

Another small difference is that the lm tour includes tow money (or contingencies) in their winnings and the sprints just show the base.

Its a fair argument that the LMs race less for more than the sprints. This is because the drivers are smarter, and the sanctioning bodies aren’t as dominant (meaning there are 2 top level sanctions instead of one and so drivers have more options which makes promoters pay more). 

The reason it's 8 events/10 nights I think is because of Volusia. They got to keep their points for only 2 of the nights. Basically you keep your top 2 races. Which sucks for Sheppard since he won all 4. 

The argument comparing Sheppard to Sweet is flawed since B-Shepp has won so many times this season. 

The one thing LM's have going for them is that in a lot of cases their crown jewels stand alone. If it's an Outlaw show Lucas Oil doesn't run against it and vice versa and also some of their crown jewels arent sanctioned like Mansfield for sprints but Lucas Oil and WOOLM don't run that week. Like how the outlaws have Nashville to go against Mansfield. Which sucks.  They also have weeks off  and when they do they will go run the other series or race races close to their home. WOO sprint cars hardly have any weeks off. Late Models have a lot of big paying shows so a guy like Sheppard makes a lot more than just what he made running with the WOOLM. He's already got a Lucas Oil win this season to go with all his WOOLM wins. 

I enjoy both the late models and the sprint cars (midgets, non-wings, USMTS modifieds as well).   While sprint cars draw big crowds, overall there are a lot more late model fans.   Thus, they have a lot more races paying $10,000 or more.   On any given weekend, there are multiple late model shows paying at least that much to win.  

Makes sense on taking their top two points nights for Volusia. Also throws this calculation way out of whack. The money is for 10 nights, not 8.

I got familiar with the Late Models through osmosis while I was doing writing and photography.  My home track was Cedar Lake and the Lates are popular in this area.  To spare a few a trip to grab the dictionary osmosis means I was around something and absorbed it even though it wasn't my original intent.  I was there for the Sprints but came to enjoy and appreciate the Latest.

Brent Larson got taken out in the WoO LM Feature this past weekend and he was the one I had the most interaction with and still do online.  Pat Doar ran with them for a while and Jimmy Mars who scored and Eldora Dream win is also based in our area.  I was tasked to cover the USA Nationals for quite a few seasons as well so I have seen most of the top drivers and even interviewed Bloomquist, McReady and a bunch of them at one time.

My observation as pointed out earlier is that there seems to be more Late Models and more tracks running them weekly.  Most of the Lates teand to be in the eastern half of the country whereas Sprints are more popular west of the Mississippi.  They are competitive, fun to watch and a blast to photograph the way they get all twisted up and gnarly looking in the turns with the body lifing up and leaning like they tend to do.

It's good racing but not so good that I'm making a point to follow on my own dime but I watch highlights on YouTube and follow results.  The local Late Models are often on the same card as Sprints so I will catch them a few times this summer.

It's good racing with some serious money in the equipment but I think a different crowd of fans with some crossing over between both like some of us here do.  They're not my main focus but I always enjoy seeing them when I can.

Stan Meissner

305's are a joke. Aside from 410's(winged or non), LM's are the next best show on dirt. 360's are pretty close.

The OP doesn't mention the Lucas Oil LM series which has a slightly better roster than the WOOLM. 

The difference is that LM's are everywhere throughout the US while sprints are only in certain regions. I like 'em both.

I've been told that the Dream and the World 100 at Eldora draw larger crowds than the Kings Royal.

A

To each their own - I would drive by a Lucas Oil LM show to go to a show headlined by 360s with 305s on the undercard. 

Coming from a former DIE HARD late model fan.......why the change? I am the opposite. Still a hard core sprint car fan who came to enjoy the DLM's late in life. I love watching the DLM's a few times a year if given the opportunity.

I never really watched Sprint Cars - I lived in Western ND (Modified country) and moved here and continued watching the same stuff. Late Models started to get ridiculous with new technology (Rumley device, Longhorn and XR1 frames being the only ones capable of doing well at $50k+ cost, etc.). After I stopped promoting the Modified series I decided I wasn't going to go to the races as much and was going to try to get used to just going to Lincoln 15 mins from home occasionally. Once I started watching Sprints it was all over. 

Also, the economics of Spint Car racing are so much better. You can buy a brand new 360 best of the best stuff for significantly less than a new SLM (or even a nice used one) and race for more money weekly. In fact you can buy a brand new best of the best 410 Sprint for a little less than an SLM and race for nearly twice as much, or more weekly. 

Thanks.......and now we know THE REST OF THE STORY. Good stuff.

You left out Micro Sprints....

actually, I'd just as soon leave early than watch LMs....

"whereas Sprints are more popular west of the Mississippi.".... whaaa????

Aren't Indiana, Ohio & Pa. East of the Mississippi??

There are hardly any sprint cars races from Kansas/ Colorado border until you hit California, & very few 410s left there...

I've done so many times in the past few years lol

    Can you please explain what a Rumley device is? Talk simple, I'm not too mechanically inclined.