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Topic: Knoxville points Email this topic to a friend | Subscribe to this TopicReport this Topic to Moderator
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Runge28
April 24, 2018 at 09:33:44 PM
Joined: 12/10/2009
Posts: 239
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This message was edited on April 24, 2018 at 09:46:13 PM by Runge28

What's everyone's opinions on the Knoxville points format. 

It seems they pay championship points on Time Trials. 

And they put alot of emphasis on them 

While I can understand the track is wanting everyone to give their all every time on the track.  The emphasis of time trials should end at the line up of that nights A-Main lineup. Not reflecting on the championship points. 

The A Main pays the money and the check. The guy who won the race gets his name in the headline on the paper. 

But if you look at the points. Austin McCarl is in 3rd place and he won the only race of the year.  Same in 360s with Clint Garner. 

Hypothetically speaking. Someone could win every race and not win the championship. 

Say it was championship night and Jamie Ball and Clint Garner we're tied going into the night.  Garner wins the race but looses the championship?? 

Matt Moro was like 5th quick. Started 5th in his heat got 6th  started on the pole of the A main got 4th and is 34 points out of the lead. (Not sure he should have started on the pole. I thought top 4invert 5/6 to the A.) 

Clint 8th quick 4th to 3rd in heat 4th to 1st in the main and is 23 points behind the leader. 

Is it just me or is this system badly broken!!???




dsc1600
April 24, 2018 at 09:59:29 PM
Joined: 05/31/2007
Posts: 4373
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I’ve always hated points systems where the winner of the race is not the high point man of the night. It works for events like the Knoxville Nationals, but it’s dumb for normal events or even regular sanctioned shows. I believe Usac also has a points system in place where the winner can get less points than someone else. 



oswald
April 24, 2018 at 11:23:02 PM
Joined: 11/30/2004
Posts: 1982
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I dont have any problem with it. Nothing they do will please everyone. Someone will find fault with any system they use. I have not heard any drivers grumbling about it.




Runge28
April 25, 2018 at 07:04:54 AM
Joined: 12/10/2009
Posts: 239
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Don't ya think people that are new to the sport or follow it and don't know all the ins and outs of the point structure would have a very hard time following or understanding how the only winner of the year isn't leading the championship points. 

Or like I said. Say your new to the sport and your first race was season championship night. Hypothetically speaking. Say Ball and Garner we're tied going into championship night. Garner won the race. But Ball wins the championship.  Do you think a new fan was made? Or confused!?



cubfan07
April 25, 2018 at 08:15:27 AM
Joined: 06/01/2007
Posts: 586
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This message was edited on April 25, 2018 at 08:16:09 AM by cubfan07

I think if it's my first race, I wouldn't care who the point leader is after night 1. Compare the nights between Austin McCarl and Terry McCarl.

TMAC: Qualified 2nd, 6th to 1st in Heat, 8th to 3rd in Feature. (passed 10 cars)

AMAC: Qualified 13th, 2nd to 1st in Heat, started 1st & finished 1st in Feature.

I have no problem with TMAC walking out as the points leader after week 1 as he proved it every time he was on the track. Glad to see AMAC FlytheW!


-Austin Rankin

YungWun24
April 25, 2018 at 08:35:01 AM
Joined: 01/19/2009
Posts: 1179
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on April 25 2018 at 07:04:54 AM

Don't ya think people that are new to the sport or follow it and don't know all the ins and outs of the point structure would have a very hard time following or understanding how the only winner of the year isn't leading the championship points. 

Or like I said. Say your new to the sport and your first race was season championship night. Hypothetically speaking. Say Ball and Garner we're tied going into championship night. Garner won the race. But Ball wins the championship.  Do you think a new fan was made? Or confused!?



Knoxville's point system is fine IMO. You get 140 pts if you're quick time, and then drops off by 5 pts. The heat winners get 20 pts, and drops off by 2 I think. The feature winners get 200 and drops off by 10. Austin timed 13th. 

I don't think someone new to the sport is going to base their decision on if they're a "fan" or not based upon who won the championship. 

Knoxville does a nice job of announcing and keeeping the fans informed, whether it's over the PA or social media, and to me besides the good racing, that is probably more important to a first time fan, than the outcome of the points.


Keep It Real


Dickie33
April 25, 2018 at 09:02:40 AM
Joined: 04/27/2010
Posts: 33
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on April 24 2018 at 09:33:44 PM

What's everyone's opinions on the Knoxville points format. 

It seems they pay championship points on Time Trials. 

And they put alot of emphasis on them 

While I can understand the track is wanting everyone to give their all every time on the track.  The emphasis of time trials should end at the line up of that nights A-Main lineup. Not reflecting on the championship points. 

The A Main pays the money and the check. The guy who won the race gets his name in the headline on the paper. 

But if you look at the points. Austin McCarl is in 3rd place and he won the only race of the year.  Same in 360s with Clint Garner. 

Hypothetically speaking. Someone could win every race and not win the championship. 

Say it was championship night and Jamie Ball and Clint Garner we're tied going into the night.  Garner wins the race but looses the championship?? 

Matt Moro was like 5th quick. Started 5th in his heat got 6th  started on the pole of the A main got 4th and is 34 points out of the lead. (Not sure he should have started on the pole. I thought top 4invert 5/6 to the A.) 

Clint 8th quick 4th to 3rd in heat 4th to 1st in the main and is 23 points behind the leader. 

Is it just me or is this system badly broken!!???



I understand what you’re saying, but if you look at the night Juhl had We were 3rd quick in time trials went from 6th to 3rd in the heat race started the feature in 7th and finished 5th. Matt is currently 4th in points.  So no I don’t think there is to much emphasis on time trials considering Austin was 13th quick. 



racefanigan
April 25, 2018 at 10:27:06 AM
Joined: 07/31/2007
Posts: 230
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From what I can tell, the only emphasis on time trials is if you are in the top 8, where there is a split, looks like from 9th on back everyone gets 100 points. If that is the case, Austin would have had to time in 6th to tie Terry for the lead, or 5th to take the lead by one spot. That is a pretty big jump. 7 spots to tie, 8 spots to lead by 5. Now, it would be a different story had Austin timed 9th, and still needed to get to those same spots to accomplish the same thing, thats only 3 spots to tie, and 4 spots to lead. Providing everything stayed the same, however things probably would have been shaken up a bit had that been the TT result, so who knows.

I guess in one scenario here, time trials are heavily weighted, where as in another, they are not so much. 

Ill use Juhl as an example here Dickie, Juhl 3rd quick, 3rd in heat and 5th in A, Wayne Johnson 11th quick, 3rd in heat and 4th in a, sits 20 points behind Matt, and still would had he timed 9th, or 20th. To me, that is just a perk of timing well.

I feel like TT is weighted fairly hard at the front of the rundown, but none at the back. I don't mind it, makes you push every time on the track.

I can see what Mitch is saying, however I do not feel the system is flawed, I guess.

Dalton Johnson



linbob
April 25, 2018 at 10:46:49 AM
Joined: 03/12/2011
Posts: 1649
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Reply to:
Posted By: oswald on April 24 2018 at 11:23:02 PM

I dont have any problem with it. Nothing they do will please everyone. Someone will find fault with any system they use. I have not heard any drivers grumbling about it.



I think there is some grumbling about it but most do not say much.  Tell how if there are 25 cars that time trial, after the first 8 cars everyone else gets the same points.  Are you telling me that the 9 th place time trial does not earn more points than the 25 place car? And the 25  th place car did not even get a time in.  This is an old archaic point  system that maybe should be changed.




Bill W
MyWebsite
April 25, 2018 at 11:51:01 AM
Joined: 11/23/2004
Posts: 5142
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This message was edited on April 25, 2018 at 11:53:07 AM by Bill W

Technically, only the top eight qualifiers receive any points, the 100 is for attempting to race...I believe USAC still just gives points to the top five qualifiers, but I may be wrong...

The much heavier emphasis is on the feature, where it should be...


If this post isn't results, stories or something c
constructive, it isn't me! 
@BillWMedia
www.OpenWheel101.com

blazer00
April 25, 2018 at 12:10:41 PM
Joined: 06/10/2015
Posts: 2420
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The only points that should matter when finding a season champ should be A Main points. The winners should remain the winners! Time trials are for lining up heats and heats are for lining up the Features. A seasonal deal is much different than an event deal....like the Nationals. And as the points system of the Nationals has proven year in and year out, the creame rises to the top.



Runge28
April 25, 2018 at 12:12:49 PM
Joined: 12/10/2009
Posts: 239
Reply

But it's still possible to win every PAYING feature event and lose the championship. 

I'm not complaing. I'm just saying. 

I can understand Terry had a better on track performance through the night.  But if he was rewarded with the most points, shouldn't he have taken home the money and the trophy along with it?

 




FRC-PR
April 25, 2018 at 12:29:27 PM
Joined: 12/13/2004
Posts: 163
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Mitch,

There is no perfect system as every team and their fans want a system that best suits their driver.

I feel the year long pt champ is just that, the team that did the best over the entire year not just one night. The winner of the feature each night gets the accolades of being the champ for that night (The most $$ & the trophy).

So you think Garner deserves more pts than Jaime Ball? Ball was 1st in TT (Garner 8th). Ran 4th in his heat from 6th (Garner 3rd from 4th) and started 8th in the feature & passed 6 of the fastest cars to run 2nd (Garner 4th to 1st).

The fast time team get's the luxury of starting behind all the fast guys all night. If you want just the team with the most wins to win the championship then you need to start EVERYTHING straight up. Do you want that? Do you think the fans will enjoy that? 

I don't...

 

 

 

 



Oppermanfan
April 25, 2018 at 01:09:18 PM
Joined: 08/06/2008
Posts: 439
Reply

I may be in the minority here but I could care less. I am in my 30th year of attending races at Knoxville and I have never understood the points and don't even care to learn. I just want to see a good race and somehow the points always work themselves out in the end. I know there isn't a perfect system so why bother complaining.  



Runge28
April 25, 2018 at 03:35:18 PM
Joined: 12/10/2009
Posts: 239
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I'm not much of a NASCAR fan.  But even with all the qualifications of the 500, the winner of daytona is the point leader.

Even if Austin has a 1 point lead. He should be the point leader. Imo. 

I agree that TT line up the heats. And the heats line up the features. 

And the features decide the Championship. 

Car owners own cars to win races. Sponsors advertise for their driver to be in the paper. 

Crewman work hard to win races. Drivers drive to go home with the trophy and the money. ! 

Just my opinion.  




FatAlbert14
April 25, 2018 at 03:59:19 PM
Joined: 04/06/2009
Posts: 205
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on April 25 2018 at 03:35:18 PM

I'm not much of a NASCAR fan.  But even with all the qualifications of the 500, the winner of daytona is the point leader.

Even if Austin has a 1 point lead. He should be the point leader. Imo. 

I agree that TT line up the heats. And the heats line up the features. 

And the features decide the Championship. 

Car owners own cars to win races. Sponsors advertise for their driver to be in the paper. 

Crewman work hard to win races. Drivers drive to go home with the trophy and the money. ! 

Just my opinion.  



No disrespect at all, I absolutely appreciate Knoxvilles point system as it simulates the Nationals format and that is why "in my opinion" you see so many Knoxville regulars do so well when August comes around for the big paying shows. I agree that is does seem weird that the drivers that won the A-feature are not leading but trust me, they ALL know the importance of the time trial in this point system. Lets have a beer and just enjoy the great racing we all get to witness at Knoxville.



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
April 25, 2018 at 04:14:43 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on April 25 2018 at 03:35:18 PM

I'm not much of a NASCAR fan.  But even with all the qualifications of the 500, the winner of daytona is the point leader.

Even if Austin has a 1 point lead. He should be the point leader. Imo. 

I agree that TT line up the heats. And the heats line up the features. 

And the features decide the Championship. 

Car owners own cars to win races. Sponsors advertise for their driver to be in the paper. 

Crewman work hard to win races. Drivers drive to go home with the trophy and the money. ! 

Just my opinion.  



You can't look at one night and determine its worthiness of crowning a champion. What if a guy were to qualify 10th, make it through his heat, earn the pole by an 8 invert and win the feature off the pole? He might not even pass a car all night and be the points leader.

I love the Knoxville format because it incentivizes the drivers to run as hard as possible every time they're on the track. 

There are strengths and weaknesses to all systems, but I think what Knoxville does is the best in balancing fairness to drivers with exciting racing, as well as determining a season champion by the driver who turns in best and most consistent performances.



jazz78
MyWebsite
April 25, 2018 at 06:59:12 PM
Joined: 08/05/2012
Posts: 23
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Reply to:
Posted By: Runge28 on April 24 2018 at 09:33:44 PM

What's everyone's opinions on the Knoxville points format. 

It seems they pay championship points on Time Trials. 

And they put alot of emphasis on them 

While I can understand the track is wanting everyone to give their all every time on the track.  The emphasis of time trials should end at the line up of that nights A-Main lineup. Not reflecting on the championship points. 

The A Main pays the money and the check. The guy who won the race gets his name in the headline on the paper. 

But if you look at the points. Austin McCarl is in 3rd place and he won the only race of the year.  Same in 360s with Clint Garner. 

Hypothetically speaking. Someone could win every race and not win the championship. 

Say it was championship night and Jamie Ball and Clint Garner we're tied going into the night.  Garner wins the race but looses the championship?? 

Matt Moro was like 5th quick. Started 5th in his heat got 6th  started on the pole of the A main got 4th and is 34 points out of the lead. (Not sure he should have started on the pole. I thought top 4invert 5/6 to the A.) 

Clint 8th quick 4th to 3rd in heat 4th to 1st in the main and is 23 points behind the leader. 

Is it just me or is this system badly broken!!???



I'm good with the point system. The only thing I would like added is the hard charger in the feature gain a point for each car passed. This would help if a driver had a flat in the heat and missed the transfer or drew a bad time spot for time trials.




z-man
April 25, 2018 at 08:21:52 PM
Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 569
Reply

I think a few of you might be confused. The "Nationals" style point system, (200) for quick time, drop by (2), heat wins (100) drop by (3), is ONLY used for lining up the night's feature events. It has nothing to do with the season point standings what so ever. The seasonal points are completely different...z



SprintFan16
MyWebsite
April 25, 2018 at 09:10:18 PM
Joined: 05/03/2007
Posts: 1612
Reply
Reply to:
Posted By: z-man on April 25 2018 at 08:21:52 PM

I think a few of you might be confused. The "Nationals" style point system, (200) for quick time, drop by (2), heat wins (100) drop by (3), is ONLY used for lining up the night's feature events. It has nothing to do with the season point standings what so ever. The seasonal points are completely different...z



I don't think anyone is confused. The numbers might not be identical, but they use the same principles in how they determine the season point standings that they use at the Nationals, which is a combination of qualifying points, heat points and feature points, not just feature finish points like a lot of tracks do.

Also, I would say that the point standings at the Nationals are way more important in determining the Saturday night lineup than lining up the prelim night features. 

 





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