Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

1st off is it legal to mentin fendered cars here?

Looking at the woo lm sched compared to the sc sched seems like the sprints get much more energy put into them by the wrg. Lm seem much more local, less races,less travelling less web site work.

Was this just a local series the wrg branded but hasnt developed? Any other comparison thoughts.

Even though I may not know you, I 
care what most of you think!

Late Models have the disadvantage of direct competition from the Lucas Oil series. WoO sprints don't have another national scale 410 travelling series, and have a larger traditional following due to historical relevance. I also think Sprint Cars on the whole are more popular nationally than late models. 

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This was my thoughts too - Lucas Oil takes a big chunk of "exposure" from WoO Late Models.

Also, my thoughts are that WRG see and treats WoO Sprints as higher profile series with higher profile drivers, teams, etc.  It's no accident "WorldOfOutlaws" is the social media handle for the Sprints while LM have a LM designation in their name.  Given it's history, when I (or someone else) says "World of Outlaws" what do you think?  Sprints right away right?  You have to clarify "WoO Late Models" when discussing that series.  They simply see it having a bigger impact on their company and brand than Late Models.   

I would agree that in terms of the 2 series, the WoO Late Models are to the Lucas Oil Series what the All Stars are the the WoO.  The WoO Late Model show runs about 50k all in, and there is very little built in for sanction fees.  The WoO has only a handful of premier events, US Nationals at Cedar Lake(also a WoO Sprint Stop) Prairie Dirt Classic, and the Firecracker 100.  All of the other crown jewels are Lucas Oil events.  In addition, traditional WoO stops are always upgrading to Lucas events (Deer Creek) if they can.  

The profit margin on the WoO Sprints is much greater as they have huge sanction fees.  Of the races the WoO promotes or co promotes with the sprint cars, they are all huge money makers like Cedar Lake, Volusia etc.  By contrast, the WoO LM have to co promote shows just to get dates, many of which they don't make a lot of money on.

I would love to see the All Stars expand further (thought the NSL might do this) and start servicing more of Indiana , Ohio and maybe even a western swing like the old Thunder through the Plains.  Guys like Kemenah and Schaffer, and arguably even Clyde Knipp and more can really benefit from racing for good purses and good schedules.  The only way this happens though is if the All Stars try to up the purse money.  A WoO show is 48 k in purse whereas a All Star show is 25k.  Would be great to see the All Stars take a jump in pay and get up in the 30k range and get the win amount closer to 7500.  The WoO LM and Lucas Oil purses for a regualar show are almost identical.

I wouldn't go far as to say the WoO Late models are to the All Stars what the Lucus is to Woo. Its a lot closer then that in terms of purse and quality of cars.

Feel free to mention fendered cars all you want.  I too am a sprint car fan and used to be HUGE late model fan.  Late Models are much more popular in my area.  There is only one dirt track within an hour of me now that Freeport Raceway Park is closed and that is Darlington WI.  All I can remember is one IRA race at Darlington about 7 or 8 years ago and maybe 2 or 3 IRA races in Freeport in the late 90's early 2000's?   Late models ruled this area 15 years ago.   When I mention TMAC to the locals, they think I mean Tim McCreadie.   I think the same is true in the Kentucky, Tenn, Missouri, Florida, etc areas.  

The money seems to be in sprint cars as the coverage is MUCH bigger.  California is a hot bed.  The upper midwest is a hot bed.  Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, the Northwest, etc.  Seems to be more nationwide.  

NO! Illegal! Somebody stop this madman before its too late!

WoO best drivers with historic wins

Shane Clanton

Rick Eckert

Brandon Shepherd(????)

Drivers who moved to Lucas who are former WoO Champs

Bloomquist(A long time ago)

McCreadie

Richards

Now look at the All Stars

Kemenah is just like Clanton

Schaeffer and Eckert are pretty comparable

I don't have a match for Shepherd but they have some young guns .

All Stars that are now Outlaws

Young Wild Child

Wilson

I agree they have better paying shows and a couple of crown jewels, but the depth of the bench is much less than the LODLM, and they dont' have anywhere near the demand for shows.  I know a track that wanted a Lucas show, and Lucas told them 3 years to prove themselves.  WoO had them on the schedule in 1 week.

WOO LM's were probably the top LM sanction 3-4 years ago but they've lost a few cars and are now second to the Lucas Oil series. They are more or less equals though with similiar purses and drivers that run some races in each series. 

A

I'm not disputing Lucus is better, but the disparity isn't as great as one would think. 

Shepherd already has 2 wins on the Lucus tour and Eckert has one. That's 3 wins that the WoO drivers have racing on the Lucus tour, which is the same amount of wins the All Star regulars have on their own tour! (all by Kemenah)

I don't consider Shaffer a regular as he's missed a bunch of races and never signed on full time. I would agree more with the idea if you included the Ohio Speedweek regulars in the assessment (Bayston, Duncan, Macedo etc... all add a bunch to the All Star tour) but they run with them on a limited basis. 

The current All Stars regulars are historically uncompetitve and certainly not as good as the WoO LM tour relatively speaking. 

If I remember correctly, the WOO Late Models were started almost as a protest series.   There were X number of high profile drivers that was upset with the santion that they were running (lucas??)  They seemed to already have a bunch of tracks lined up as well.    They went to the WOO and asked them to start sanctioning late models.   They already had done a lot of the leg work and the WOO only really needed to add thier brand to it.  

At the start up, it seemed that the WOO late models were the better series.   Now, I have no idea.  

Also, I would bet an adult bevarage on which one is more popular.   The Late Model guys run for decent purses and have a lot more dates.   Hell Tour makes any speed weeks seem small.

I actually think top to bottom the WOOLM have a lot more depth to their following compared to the Lucas Oil series which is very top heavy. The Lucas Oil tour is much more sought after by tracks, I know Sharon dropped the WOOLM to try to get the Lucas Oil, but were put on a wait list for a date for years until 2016 when they finally got a date. 

As as far as WOOLM vs WOOSC it's pretty clear the Sprints are bigger and more important to WRG for all the reasons mentioned already. The LM's probably still make a good chunk of change, but I'd wager if the WRG was facing financial difficulties, they'd cut the LM tour before the Sprints

If you're talking fender cars, I prefer Modifieds....

I personally think it's a joke they use the WoO name when referring to late models. I know they bought the name and can do what they want. They shoulda came up with a different name in my opinion. 

How quickly everyone forgets history.....

Ted Johnson started the WoO Late Models in the 1980's as I recall (Billy Moyer, Bloomquist, etc.).  It lasted about 3 years and another tour popped up in it's place.

Boundless resurrected the name when they bought out Ted.  Current ownership has kept that tour going as well (as well as DIRT in the NE for modifieds).

Anyone that thinks this was all new in the 2000's might think this way, but it's excellent marketing stategy.  They get instant name recognition whereas let's say "Jimmy John's Late Models" would mean zippo to everyone....

It has nothing to do with forgetting history. In fact I believe it pays homage to the history of Sprint Cars not using the name with late models. Before the World of Outlaws the guys that ran around the countryracing sprint cars, chasing money races and not running with a sanctioning body were called outlaws. That's where Ted came up with the name. Obviously it didn't work for him and he scrapped it. Like I said I get it, they bought the rights and I understand they want to get all of the mileage out of the name that they can. In my opinion it just does t work. 

From a marketing standpoint, they are extremely smart to use the World of Outlaws banner. 

Why would you try to build up a new brand from scratch when you already have a brand?  

It's about using the brand name you have to bolster your business.  Everyone does it in every business.  

Want to know how hard it is to launch a new brand, ask LaVar Ball.  Whoever is bankrolling his BigBallerBrand of shoes and apparel is hemmoraging money currently... and probably will be for a long time until they pull the plug unless a real brand like Nike, Adidas, Under Armor or Converse buy them (unlikely).

Yes, the sprint cars are the headliner, but that is no different than NASCAR, most people immediately think the Cup Series, but it brings name recognition to the "casual fan" or those that haven't even seen a race live in their life.  Without the work NASCAR in front of it, how would the K&N Series, Truck Series or weekly series even survive.

I just think the term and name is so closely associated to sprints that it's not really working. I agree its tough to start a brand but if its not it's not really working maybe that's their next best shot. 

I think STARS was the top LM sanction prior to WOO and Lucas Oil.

A

I remember STARS. Wasn't there an All Stars Late Models too for a short time?