Forum: HoseHeads Sprint Car General Forum (go)
Moderators: dirtonly  /  dmantx  /  hosehead

With the money being thrown around in the Midwest could we see guys like sides, McMahon, Shark racing going more towards a true outlaw style? I would imagine Kerry's margin is alot more favorable this year vs last year. 

Also what does a track pay the WoO to show up? If you can get 30 cars with quality guys like the Madsens, Brown, lasoski, on top of the sprinkled in invader like elliasion, Paige polyak, bacon, etc. Would the smart move be putting the sanction fee straight into the purse?

Yes, I agree running a true outlaw schedule maybe the way to go , it would probably be less expensive then running with Outlaws .

You have to figure in tow money.  What does the Outlaws pay their drivers for tow money versus not recieving any tow money.  I'm sure tracks might pay some kind of tow money too.

Tow money and point fund are 2 big reasons. 

How much is tow money?

From the subject line I thought this thread was going to be about Opp, GP and Ferkel.  

As Did I -- TRUE OUTLAWS.  WOO has somewhat taken away the Outlaw side of being an Outlaw.  Also the Money you need just to run a full WOO Series Year is astronomical.  The poor backyard Mechanic with a low buck sponser or 2 is left out of that club for financial reasons.  I have alwasy thought that if 410 Sprint car racing is going to last in the future something has to be done to make it more affordable.  Either totally do away with sanctioning bodies such as WOO etc.  and make it truely Outlaw where guys can pick and choose where and when they want to run and steal the local purse's or have 4 divisions of WOO Club divided into country Sections North East West and South. Then have the top 10 drivers from each Sanctioned WOO DIvision Battle it out in one end of season race at either Knoxville or Eldora for the Championship

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I have a gut feeling Tony Stewart aka "Smoke" Is going to try and do something to this effect in the very near future

 Your right MR. NoDoors in what  you say , something has to give and soon .

If something isnt done about costs not only with the 410's but even the 358/360's arSprint Car Racing is going to be a thing of the past.  Hell I saw a 305 engine "SEALED" selling for $24,000 They have already made it all but impossible for the working man to even think about building a competitive car (Not a winning Car -- Just a competitive one) -- Car counts are continually getting less and less and it is because of the BIG DOLLAR, SPARE NO EXPENSE, I DONT CAR IF I MAKE MONEY OR EVEN BREAK EVEN owner who has to feed his already oversized EGO

Think about this We havs a R=oller that costs between 10 and 15 grand but the motor is 100,000 for the season because you need at least 2 spares and if your lucky you may get  races ut of an enging.  (* races is being generous too) The shame of it is this when car counts get to 8 or 10 somebody is going to say WTF Happened and its going to be the guy who actually Spared No Expense that is going to question what happened.

There is an easy way to solve this problem too.  Yae Yae some if not the majority of you guys are going to disagree with me but If they make the Wings SMALLER you wouldn't need all the HP to turn the outside tire to go around the track faster than speeding bullet.  Not only would you be able to lower HP and Engine Costs but tires would last longer that 20 laps and god forbid the DRIVER yes the DRIVER would actually have to DRIVE the car instead of the car basically turning itself through the turn because the down force and Chassis Setup have all the Weight on the Outside RR whis is basically forcing the car to turn on it own because all the weight and HP is on that tire.

If you dont believe me or cant understand what I am saying here is a true scenario that happened at Port Royal Speedway.  I will not name names because that is irrelevant. (You will also know which driver it is if yoy know anything about sprint car history) Some if not alot of drivers actually put a DRAG SLICK (Not a Hoosier Dirt tire) Yes Drag Slick on the Outside RR.  The reason and logic behind that was that a Drag Slick when heated up would grow (actually the size of the tire would increase Up and get larger as it heated up) going into the turn.  Well as the Car went into the turn the Drag Slick getting larger due to Weight Transfer heating the tire up in the turn was Lifting the other 3 tires off the track.  The RR was driving and actually turning the car,  the driver would then KISS THE OUTSIDE WALL to straighten the car for the Straight a ways and NEVER HAD TO LIFT OFF THE GAS.  I know for a fact that he was kissing the wall because the Black Sidewall of the Outside rear tire slowly turned White and by the end of the race the Outside REAR TIRE looked like a Whitw Wall tire.

Now you ask wht does this have to do with costs.  If it wasnt for the Wing being so big there is no way in gods green earth could you rely solely on the RR to drive you through the turn and use the wall to straighten the car out.-- Smaller Wing would equate to needing less HP -- Less HP equates to less money -- Less Money equates to MORE CARS

I hope you enjoyed my lil Rant but in all reality something has to be done about costs because it isnt helping this great sport -- In reality it is causing its demise

"True Outlaws" are a nightmare for promoters wanting to have posters printed about upcoming events.  Can anyone imagine trying to promote a race not knowing for sure who will show up?  True Outlaws as pointed out turn their backs on points funds and tow money.  True Outlaws need sponsors they can represent on a hit and miss basis.  Any sponsor trying to get their product/services into the public eye has to like the increased coverage following a series provides.

Look, I was watching my first races 18 years before the Outlaw sanctioning body appeared on the scene.  This concept of True Outlaws is romantacized today as if we had some kind of utopia back then.  The fondest memories of "True Outlaws" are of those who happened to be sitting in the stands when some traveling gypsy pulled into to a race they attended.  Never mentioned are those of us who used to go to the races expecting to see our favorite driver only to find out they weren't going to show up.  I remember that scenario happening a lot more times than being thrilled because so and so pulled in the back gate unexpectedly.  We won't even get into what happens when tracks all across the country start doing their own thing and creating rules in an attempt to retain their local racers. 

Racing has it's share of issues today but all that aside the rules are pretty consistent and the sanctions have done a good job of drawing the kind of attention that sponsors like.  The helter skelter of days gone by produced more chaos than great memories if anyone were to ask my opinion.  In this day and age of high expenses you're not going to see a bunch of rag tag partiers criss crossing the country sampling the beers in every state from a pickup and open trailer.  Get over it and put that idea out of mind, it ain't happening.  Those racers of legend were a blip in the stream of time. 

Stan Meissner

Have been saying very similar things for a long time and unfortuneatly it all falls on deaf ears. The culprit.....todays World of Outlaws. It's become big business, controlled and owned by big business. The business model of the WoO is simple to understand.....design a set of rules that favors the richest car owners so that they WILL pocket 75%-80%  (or more) of the season's huge purse money. In other words, keep the largest possible amount of purse money "in family". Take care of your own. The latest rule/format that helps insure that is the new qualifying procedure....... 85%-90% of heats and features are won from the front two rows. Where would you want your series' teams to start?

One of my favorite tracks growing up had the pits at the end of the track.  The race cars trailers had to drive past the back of the grandstands to get to the pits.   I remember getting there early with my dad and watching all the cars drive into the pits.   It was exciting to see who made it to the track that week.

With driver websites, Facebook and Twitter, driver's schedules are always known.   I follow a couple of late model drivers on Twitter and they are always answering questions about thier schedules.   I agree that the notion of "True Outlaws"  are a thing of the past. 

Finally, if the WOO has an event scheduled and there is a 75% chance of rain, all of the WOO drivers will be in the pits.   A true Outlaw is going to tow to an event that has a 75% chance of rain.   They are going to go somewhere else or stay on thier porch.  

Have been saying very similar things for a long time and unfortuneatly it all falls on deaf ears. The culprit.....todays World of Outlaws. It's become big business, controlled and owned by big business. The business model of the WoO is simple to understand.....design a set of rules that favors the richest car owners so that they WILL pocket 75%-80%  (or more) of the season's huge purse money. In other words, keep the largest possible amount of purse money "in family". Take care of your own. The latest rule/format that helps insure that is the new qualifying procedure....... 85%-90% of heats and features are won from the front two rows. Where would you want your series' teams to start?

blazer00,  Have to totally disagree with you on this.  There are a lot more non WoO drivers winning a WoO race than ever before.  Back in the 80's it was something to hear the WoO was beat by a local.  Also I can't imagine being a Promoter of a $20,000 or $10,000 dollar race and not knowing who's going to show up.   Being a fan, I'll drive hours to see the WoO or AllStars knowing what drivers will be there for sure.  I'm not going to drive for hours to a big paying race hoping a few outsiders join the regulars which in turn hurts the Promoter because now fans aren't there. 

The term "True Outlaw" is romantisized, mostly by people who weren't even born back in the 60's and 70's.  As somebody who was around back then I'm just bringing up some of the counter points to the notion of a racing team not knowing their next destination until race day.  There are a few drivers I'm familiar with not running for points who aren't chasing points with anyone.  Bill Balog comes to mind, he has run WoO, ASCOC, NSL, Badlands, Midgets and even played around with a pavement Stock Car.  In my mind not running for points like he's doing isn't what I associate in my mind with the old style Outlaws from back in the day.  He stays within a certain geographical area that fits the budget and doesn't take off from home with no return date in mind chasing the biggest purses. 

A guy not running for points who returns home to wife and kids (and shop) at the end of the weekend is a lot different than the notion of a True Outlaw aka the barnstormers of days gone by.  Fact is that there was a time back in the day when a race car had a half a chance to support itself on the road but those days are long gone.  They'd run a chassis 15 years back then and straigten it if it got bent.  Today it's all about the credit card and next day delivery from parts suppliers.  Today a racing team needs to keep the pieces in stock and spare motors fresh and ready to go if they want to be competitive anywhere in this country.  It takes a much better support system to run a competitive racing team than it did 40 years ago.  Maybe not running for points was what the original post was actually referring to.  I think that would make more sense than referring to someone as an "True Outlaw" in this day and age.  True Outlaws were noted just as much for their partying as their racing and that is something high buck sponsors would not put up with very long today. 

Stan Meissner

Won't disagree with you a bit on the number of non outlaw regulars winning races. But take a hard look at who they are and where thay are beating them at. For the most part they aren't just regular non outlaws....they are the fastest and best funded local teams....or the Rico's and Kyle Larson's that are out there. The point I was making had more to do with the money aspect that makes the winners today, and your list of outsiders will concur with that. Also, the AllStars format is much more entertaining than the WoO format, and the All Stars are putting on the best show. And I'm a fan of both.

To put the fastest car on the pole of the heat race there just going to drive away. You draw a late number end up being the 15th fastest car you basicly have no chance of wining. I think the heat race winers(with an invert of 6) and the 4 fastest qulifers was the best Woo system.  Atleast for the fans.... 

1st off I was born in the 60's -- Saw my first Midget race in 1969 and never looked back.  I built my 1st midget car when I was 14 yrs old for a guy who took it apart and couldnt remember how to put it back together -- It was an old 1963 Curtis midget,  dont sit there and preach about "True Outlaws" to me. 

The whole pourpose of this thread or at least what it turned into is the exorbinant ampunt of mone it takes to run a 410 or 358/360 Sprint Car, and how the BIG BUCK OWNER/SPONSER/s will pay anything to win and the poor backyard mechanic and full time farmer has NO CHANCE WHAT SO EVER to compete with them.  WOO has ruined this sport (SANCTIONING BODIES) Woo was the 1st one so they get all the credit or lack there of.

This sport is going to be a thing of the past if someone doesnt come out with a wasy to control costs and make it affordable for the average Joe to compete.  The way it was ans is supposed to be.  I for the life of me cant understand putting 50 to 70 thousand dollars into Not a Car but an enging maybe get  races out of it and smile because u won 3 out of the 8 races DNF in 1 of them and did no better than a top 12 0r 15 in the rest.  These guys that do this have so much money they could care less how much they lose just as long as their car WINS.

Ask yourself this -- What does that do for Farmer Joe and his son who spent the diaper money for his daughter to buy  a new cam so he maybe can qualify against the Visiting WOO Show on saturday night? 

maybe CREDIT CARDS  are at fault.  I see  guys buying 6 new tires at a time and I know they will not pay cash.  We buy 1 at a time and pay for it cash or check.  Buy a new car, they charge it.  A  engine builder said a guy got a new engine and used 4 of his credit cards and 1 of his mothers to pay for it.  They then go to track and are big wheels with all new stuff.  Will it ever be paid for?  Who knows.

If you want to cut costs steel block motors, small wings and no tire rule at all!  If the tire companys offer points fund money tell them to jam it. Look at racing format itself as several prior posts described.  More laps for mains and less races each month.  Saturation is a bad thing, what family has a hundred to drop every friday night?  Do away with traveling Outlaw association as locals go broke keeping up.  If your a true outlaw run what the local rules require not the opposite. Just a few thoughts...................................

CAJ